Unusual Tibetan hilted Saber

RSWORD · 23rd November 2008, 03:01 AM

This is an unusual piece to be purely Tibetan so thought it would make an interesting discussion piece. The hilt appears classical Eastern Tibet in style, but with a saber blade as opposed to a straight blade most typically found on Tibetan pieces. The blade exhibits very nice lamination, not unlike Tibetan swords, but the pattern flows through to the tip versus having the classical hairpin turn. You do find Tibetan style hairpin lamination in swords from Assam and also Bhutan. The blade has an unusual false edge about 8-9 inches from the tip which is atypical for Tibetan. It has been hypothesized that perhaps this sword may be from a border group in the corner of Tibet, Bhutan and Assam. Would certainly help explain some of the non-Tibetan features of the blade. The sword feels fantastic in the hands and has an extremely hard and sharp edge so it was meant for business. Thoughts?

Mark · 24th November 2008, 09:45 PM

An interesting hybrid. I would say the blade profile is more Indian than Chinese, so a more southern provenance or origin makes sense (at least to me). Is it possible that it is a re-profiled straight sword, made by grinding out along the spine and at the tip? It seems to me that the grain doesn't exactly follow the curve of the blade.

RSWORD · 24th November 2008, 10:11 PM

Hi Mark. It is not a reprofiled straight sword as the edge hardness/tempering goes all the way to the tip. An altered sword would not typically have that hardness/tempering remaining in the tip of the sword.

josh stout · 25th November 2008, 03:42 PM

The hilt as you say is typically Eastern Tibetan, and is typical of what I have seen coming out of Qinghai. My guess is the saber is from the Kokonor Mongols.

The Mongols adapted many Tibetan styles, but LaRocca mentions that Tibetans recognized curved blades as typical of the Mongols. Given some time I can find the name for the saber type in the appendix of terms in the Tibetan arms and armor book.
Josh

Gavin Nugent · 25th November 2008, 07:44 PM

A nice clean example of an unusual sword Rick!

Great Josh thinking, maybe I can help with the time factor and have a look.

There are two names that I can see within the appendix that may shed some light on this unusual piece.

The first is shang lang and the second is hu bde. The first refers to a single edged curved sword that the English would call a sabre, the second is a Mongol sword.

Gav

josh stout · 30th November 2008, 02:20 AM

Yeah those were the two names I was thinking of, but I just can't seem to remember them. The "hu" part comes from a Chinese word for foreigners usually referring to northern tribes such as the Mongols, but Tibetan words don’t stay in my head very well. Thanks for saving the time with a search. The %$$#@! appendix is alphabetized by the Tibetan alphabet.
Josh

Jim McDougall · 30th November 2008, 08:56 PM

As usual, Rsword comes up with some of the most intriguing weapons I have ever seen! and this one is most definitely in that category. I honestly never realized that pattern welded sabre blades existed, though I would expect that sabres would certainly be favored by tribal groups such as suggested by Josh.
The KokoNor region (Qinghai) is virtually a melting pot of ethnic groups with fascinating history reflecting influx of tribes from one of the last nomadic empires, the Dzungars of East Turkistan (from Xinjiang to the NW).

In the mid 18th century, these tribal groups were virtually annhialated by the Manchu armies of China's Qianlong emperor, though of course these Turkic people survived in minority. Also present were others, such as Han Chinese, Mongols and the Tibetans, who had long ruled these regions before the Qing conquest.

The Eastern part of Tibet seems to reflect in its swords much of the Bhutanese style, which I believe is most associated with this hilts basic form, though of course typically with the more ornate pierced steel motif. As always, it is difficult to assign distinct style and form to specific geographic region, but I have always thought of this shape as Bhutanese.

The profile of the blade on this sabre, is as suggested by Mark, most like Indian and seems to me very tulwar like, and truly beautiful in this well executed pattern welded blade with the hallmark Tibetan style hairpin turn.
In "Oriental Armour" (H.Russell Robinson, 1967, p.163-64) it is noted that "..the armour of the Bhutanese falls between that of North India and Tibet, deriving most of its characteristics from the former, and only details from the latter and from China to the northeast".
In describing the helmets, it seems they followed the style from the Indian side of the Himalayas, while adding Mongolian style peak.

It would seem that in its simplistic beauty, this sabre was likely produced for an individual of tribal importance, probably from lower border regions from Eastern Tibet to Sichuan and in the Qinghai province. If its age would support by close examination, it should be noted that the Qianlong emperor of the Manchu's (Qing) who was in power until end of the 18th century, very much favored Indian weapon forms and affectations in these times. Indian style became apparant in numerous Qing weapons, and I wonder if perhaps those more focused influences might have come into play here with a curved sabre with Bhutanese and apparantly Indian features brought together in tribal regions then under Qing dominion.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2008, 02:53 AM

Still intrigued by this captivating sabre, I continued excavations in my notes

In a copy of "Arms and Armour in Late Imperial China" by Oliver Moore ("Apollo" magazine, Feb.1995, Vol.CXL #396) the author notes in discussion of Ming and Qing weaponry that certain fashions and affectations were borrowed from Tibet, and that termly tributes were expected to be provided to the Chinese court. This included swords, knives, helmets and armour and in the long standing statutes, it is mentioned that there were "...Tibetan monks working as armourers for the Chinese court in designated monasteries in southwest province of Sichuan (p.17, and footnote #6 notes that the area in question is in the northwest zone of Sichuan, citing resource "Da Ming Huidan",108, 1a,2b,7b,9a).

It has often been suggested in my experience, that styles and blades normally not found in Chinese swords ,may have been specially made for Qing officers serving in 'frontier' regions of the Chinese empire. In a number of cases for example, there have been distinctly Chinese swords with wootz blades (or possibly pattern welded Damascus of other form, rare but known in Chinese swords), some with Indian style hilts and so on, these mostly from Xinjiang if I recall. Perhaps the above notes describing the tribute statutes might apply to Qing officers in regions of Qinghai.

Just more thoughts presenting perspective ,

All best regards,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 1st December 2008, 04:03 AM

So very Intriguing Jim, another wonderful display of your broad knowledge and a wonderful bibliography to boot.

I have one question though, when is it that you find the time to sleep?

All the best

Gav

Jim McDougall · 1st December 2008, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

So very Intriguing Jim, another wonderful display of your broad knowledge and a wonderful bibliography to boot.

I have one question though, when is it that you find the time to sleep?

All the best

Gav

Hi Gav,
Sleep?!!

What sleep! Thank you Gav for the kind words.
So many weapons, so little time.

I just wanted to share what I could find, and hope for other input on this piece. I wish Philip Tom would come in on this as he would definitely have the bottom line.....my info is just speculation, but at least we have some ideas on possibilities.

All the best !
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 1st December 2008, 09:45 AM

A great Idea Jim!

Rick have you asked Philip Tom? I recently wrote to Philip about the Yanyuedao I posted. He did express he was very busy and had little time for posting on the forum but would communicate one on one with emails. I received a fantastic insight into the piece I had and some further good direction with which to study too. Seems like a good idea...

Haha Jim, so many weapons so little time, the wife is always having ago at me for sending so much time with the other woman

and I keep telling her all this naked steel is my pornographic library

Gav

Be sure to get back to everyone with Philip's word on the piece Rick.

23rd November 2008, 03:01 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Unusual Tibetan hilted Saber This is an unusual piece to be purely Tibetan so thought it would make an interesting discussion piece. The hilt appears classical Eastern Tibet in style, but with a saber blade as opposed to a straight blade most typically found on Tibetan pieces. The blade exhibits very nice lamination, not unlike Tibetan swords, but the pattern flows through to the tip versus having the classical hairpin turn. You do find Tibetan style hairpin lamination in swords from Assam and also Bhutan. The blade has an unusual false edge about 8-9 inches from the tip which is atypical for Tibetan. It has been hypothesized that perhaps this sword may be from a border group in the corner of Tibet, Bhutan and Assam. Would certainly help explain some of the non-Tibetan features of the blade. The sword feels fantastic in the hands and has an extremely hard and sharp edge so it was meant for business. Thoughts? Attached Images

25th November 2008, 07:44 PM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Maybe I can help A nice clean example of an unusual sword Rick! Great Josh thinking, maybe I can help with the time factor and have a look. There are two names that I can see within the appendix that may shed some light on this unusual piece. The first is shang lang and the second is hu bde. The first refers to a single edged curved sword that the English would call a sabre, the second is a Mongol sword. Gav

30th November 2008, 08:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	As usual, Rsword comes up with some of the most intriguing weapons I have ever seen! and this one is most definitely in that category. I honestly never realized that pattern welded sabre blades existed, though I would expect that sabres would certainly be favored by tribal groups such as suggested by Josh. The KokoNor region (Qinghai) is virtually a melting pot of ethnic groups with fascinating history reflecting influx of tribes from one of the last nomadic empires, the Dzungars of East Turkistan (from Xinjiang to the NW). In the mid 18th century, these tribal groups were virtually annhialated by the Manchu armies of China's Qianlong emperor, though of course these Turkic people survived in minority. Also present were others, such as Han Chinese, Mongols and the Tibetans, who had long ruled these regions before the Qing conquest. The Eastern part of Tibet seems to reflect in its swords much of the Bhutanese style, which I believe is most associated with this hilts basic form, though of course typically with the more ornate pierced steel motif. As always, it is difficult to assign distinct style and form to specific geographic region, but I have always thought of this shape as Bhutanese. The profile of the blade on this sabre, is as suggested by Mark, most like Indian and seems to me very tulwar like, and truly beautiful in this well executed pattern welded blade with the hallmark Tibetan style hairpin turn. In "Oriental Armour" (H.Russell Robinson, 1967, p.163-64) it is noted that "..the armour of the Bhutanese falls between that of North India and Tibet, deriving most of its characteristics from the former, and only details from the latter and from China to the northeast". In describing the helmets, it seems they followed the style from the Indian side of the Himalayas, while adding Mongolian style peak. It would seem that in its simplistic beauty, this sabre was likely produced for an individual of tribal importance, probably from lower border regions from Eastern Tibet to Sichuan and in the Qinghai province. If its age would support by close examination, it should be noted that the Qianlong emperor of the Manchu's (Qing) who was in power until end of the 18th century, very much favored Indian weapon forms and affectations in these times. Indian style became apparant in numerous Qing weapons, and I wonder if perhaps those more focused influences might have come into play here with a curved sabre with Bhutanese and apparantly Indian features brought together in tribal regions then under Qing dominion. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 30th November 2008 at 09:43 PM.

1st December 2008, 02:53 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Still intrigued by this captivating sabre, I continued excavations in my notes In a copy of "Arms and Armour in Late Imperial China" by Oliver Moore ("Apollo" magazine, Feb.1995, Vol.CXL #396) the author notes in discussion of Ming and Qing weaponry that certain fashions and affectations were borrowed from Tibet, and that termly tributes were expected to be provided to the Chinese court. This included swords, knives, helmets and armour and in the long standing statutes, it is mentioned that there were "...Tibetan monks working as armourers for the Chinese court in designated monasteries in southwest province of Sichuan (p.17, and footnote #6 notes that the area in question is in the northwest zone of Sichuan, citing resource "Da Ming Huidan",108, 1a,2b,7b,9a). It has often been suggested in my experience, that styles and blades normally not found in Chinese swords ,may have been specially made for Qing officers serving in 'frontier' regions of the Chinese empire. In a number of cases for example, there have been distinctly Chinese swords with wootz blades (or possibly pattern welded Damascus of other form, rare but known in Chinese swords), some with Indian style hilts and so on, these mostly from Xinjiang if I recall. Perhaps the above notes describing the tribute statutes might apply to Qing officers in regions of Qinghai. Just more thoughts presenting perspective , All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st December 2008 at 03:12 AM.

1st December 2008, 04:03 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Intriguing So very Intriguing Jim, another wonderful display of your broad knowledge and a wonderful bibliography to boot. I have one question though, when is it that you find the time to sleep? All the best Gav

24th November 2008, 09:45 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	An interesting hybrid. I would say the blade profile is more Indian than Chinese, so a more southern provenance or origin makes sense (at least to me). Is it possible that it is a re-profiled straight sword, made by grinding out along the spine and at the tip? It seems to me that the grain doesn't exactly follow the curve of the blade.

24th November 2008, 10:11 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Hi Mark. It is not a reprofiled straight sword as the edge hardness/tempering goes all the way to the tip. An altered sword would not typically have that hardness/tempering remaining in the tip of the sword.

25th November 2008, 03:42 PM	#4
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The hilt as you say is typically Eastern Tibetan, and is typical of what I have seen coming out of Qinghai. My guess is the saber is from the Kokonor Mongols. The Mongols adapted many Tibetan styles, but LaRocca mentions that Tibetans recognized curved blades as typical of the Mongols. Given some time I can find the name for the saber type in the appendix of terms in the Tibetan arms and armor book. Josh

30th November 2008, 02:20 AM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Yeah those were the two names I was thinking of, but I just can't seem to remember them. The "hu" part comes from a Chinese word for foreigners usually referring to northern tribes such as the Mongols, but Tibetan words don’t stay in my head very well. Thanks for saving the time with a search. The %$$#@! appendix is alphabetized by the Tibetan alphabet. Josh

1st December 2008, 09:45 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A good idea Jim A great Idea Jim! Rick have you asked Philip Tom? I recently wrote to Philip about the Yanyuedao I posted. He did express he was very busy and had little time for posting on the forum but would communicate one on one with emails. I received a fantastic insight into the piece I had and some further good direction with which to study too. Seems like a good idea... Haha Jim, so many weapons so little time, the wife is always having ago at me for sending so much time with the other woman and I keep telling her all this naked steel is my pornographic library Gav Be sure to get back to everyone with Philip's word on the piece Rick.