Ancient Spear Or Forgery?

[drzzzzz]

Helllo again fellows. You guys have been a tremendous source of good info. and I really appreciate all of your help. Here is another one of my recently purchased items. I know absoulutely nothing about this. Can anyone help with identifying this and what period in history if it is an authentic ancient weapon? Is this the real deal or fake? Measures approx. 22" long and is made of heavy iron. Thanks in advance.

[wolviex]

Hello!

It something between spear and sponton, 19th century. We have here in Museum few halberds, spontons etc. like this - very rude, very heavy, unhandy. After the cleaning it could be nice decorative object.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Drzzzzz. Looks like the real thing to me but alas only in decorative condition.It is really out of my field but may be late 17-late18 cent and known as a Partizan.Here are some pictures.Tim

[tom hyle]

If it seems excessively heavy, especially in the thickness of the flanges, that may more point to a late 19th decorative piece; I think old partizans and spontoons were usually fairly light affairs; on the other hand, most I've seen were somewhat vestigial 18th century rank-marker military standards, or others similarly ceremonial, so say it was a 17th c. piece; a greater weight and solidity might be "right" for all I know. If it seems cast, it's likely 1850-1930. What about the decorative theme; the man or boy; I know there's not much detail left, but it seems like a "stock" image; perhaps a datable one?

[fearn]

Personally, I can't help wondering if it's a decorative piece made of cast iron. For what it's worth, I was thinking partizan as well.

Fearn

[tom hyle]

The pictures take a while; I never saw the end of the socket before. It seems thicker than proper; is it flanged from being beaten upon? Is it folded-over to the in side? Or is it straight-up just that thick? Anyway, the socket, especially the inside, is where you'll either likely see casting lines, or a forging line where it was rolled up, and maybe a tanglike nub from the blade-base. I personally think I may see a casting line disapearing into that shadow. I, too, suspect a casting, late 19th/early 20th, and moreso with that thick socket end, but I'm not sure. How old is the break at the tip? it does not look sharpened? Is there crystalize "grain" visible? Ie pebbly surface? Is there delamination/layers visible here or anywhere?

[Jens Nordlunde]

For a partizan it looks more heavy than normally seen, so I agree that it is cast.

Jens

[derek]

Doesn't the socket seem a bit too short to be functional?

-d

[wolviex]

Originally Posted by derek

Doesn't the socket seem a bit too short to be functional?

Even if it is too short, it doesn't matter because it is decorative not functional

[Tim Simmons]

Could the name partizan have routes in parti and partir and indicates it was a decorative tool on a long pole to section the line when needed?Tim

[Rick]

I'm thinking 19c. revival piece in poor condition possibly recovered from a trash pit by a bottle digger . That would account for the heavy rusting .

Rick
/only an opinion , I used to dig bottles .

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

I'd suggest you might use the same logic on the Bohemian Ear Spoon, which I believe was fairly similar to the Partizan.

Quite honestly, I'm not sure where the term came from. The dictionary says it's of French derivation, and I don't know whether it's what partisans were armed with or what. It's another one of those wonderful European pole arms that are supposed to slice, dice, skewer, and never lose their cool look...

Fearn

[Tim Simmons]

I cleaned mine this morning thank you I was looking closely and if it is a casting in iron it is extemely well done after all that rusting,unless it was faked up,but it would cost more to fake than what it would sell for.Tim

[Mark]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

If it seems excessively heavy, especially in the thickness of the flanges, that may more point to a late 19th decorative piece; I think old partizans and spontoons were usually fairly light affairs; on the other hand, most I've seen were somewhat vestigial 18th century rank-marker military standards, or others similarly ceremonial, so say it was a 17th c. piece; a greater weight and solidity might be "right" for all I know. If it seems cast, it's likely 1850-1930. What about the decorative theme; the man or boy; I know there's not much detail left, but it seems like a "stock" image; perhaps a datable one?

I was thinking a later ceremonial piece, as well. I have read somewhere that the partizan (and the halbard, too, I guess) survived for a long time as a prop in the pomp and circumstance of European noble's trains. Picture the Beefeaters, the Swiss Guard, or the [English] Queen's Life Guard. Well, the last one's don't carry pole-arms, but they do wear anachronistic cuirasses and burnished helmets. I would expect that this kind of thing became more decorative and less useful as a weapon as time went by.

[Conogre]

The uses are many, including those listed by Tom, while another common usage for similar items was/is as gate and wall fillials in large estates, with smaller, spear-like heads mounted on the bars themselves.....I've seen variuos polearm heads, both simulated and real, used as such in SE Asia, the US and in photographs from S. America as well and suspect similar may be found throughout Europe.
Cast iron "replicas" are often made locally for theatrical use as well, as I've known gentlemen who produce such in both Michigan and here in Florida as well.
Oh...and don't forget flagpole fillials, both on today's pieces and on regimental/company military flagpoles from the erly 1900's back to the revolutionary period here in the US, as well as for fraternal organizations that can cover a wide range of time periods.
With the apparenty flattened edges and heavy weight, I suspect that yours may well have been used in the latter fashion.
Mike

[Andrew]

I've linked this thead to MyArmoury. Perhaps someone over there can add to the discussion.

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewto...?p=38715#38715

[Conogre]

Is it too late to say, "if you don't want it........."?**grin**
Obviously, I personally find it has a certain appeal
Mike

[tom hyle]

Tim, good pics; thanks; I didn't see them before? I do think that if one examined the ones you picture one would find them much lighter than this piece.
I wouldn't say this piece is in decorative condition; quite the opposite, actually; it seems to have lost much of its appearance, but to be still quite solid (for cast iron, if that's what it is), and likely close to as useful as it ever was.
There's nothing short about the socket, unless it's not hollow its full length.
I do think it's a casting, mainly because of the seemingly excessive and impractical weight of various features, and if so, then it was, of course, made as a decorative/ceremonial/etc. piece. Dang English tourist spears That's a joke.....................................

[Conogre]

Look at it this way....put it on a good solid pole and you've got one that you can throw at a tree all day without worrying about damage.......I do suggest a BIG tree though!**grin**
Mike

[Andrew]

From MyArmoury:

Originally Posted by Allan Senefelder

Andrew, this is based on nothing more than the time i've spent collecting original and vintage(Victorian copies) arms and armour, which translates out to what i've ever had in my hands which ain't much on a scale for 1-10. That being said here it is , overall from the pics on the other thread this is A) a partizian B) a cast Victorian version of one. The figural motif which was popular especially for cerimonial use in the 17th and 18th centuries would have been etched at that time (that i'm aware) and it has pretty obviously been cast from the photos. The overall proportions are in the zone for cerimonial work from the 17th and 18th centuries but its to "thick" if you will all the way around(it doesn't have the character of the forged pole arms i've owned but that of the cast Victorian decorator pieces i've had). So I guess in summary IMO its a Victorian era badly kept(cleaned/maintained) cast version of a partizian. This is based soley (sp) on the pictures so definitely take it for what its worth. I'll supply the grain of salt.

[tom hyle]

Moving toward a consensus?(I feel sure I spelled that wrong....)? It looks to me like it spent some years underground, or perhaps wrapped or otherwise enclosed in some moisture-wicking material. No one in China listen, but youse might be surprised what a couple weeks wrapped in newspaper gotten wet by a person not me while under her care will do to "age" your nice antiques
Also, though plenty sturdy for day to day handling, and in all reality probably fine and dandy for haybails or even for spearing an occasional animal, cast iron is a relatively brittle substance, and a wooden target might well do this thing in (or at least its tip) in fairly short order. I agree with Conogre though that it's still a fun piece, probably with some good age (pre wwII), and of some interest as a costume, decorator, or even practice blade.

[wolviex]

Hello!

As I wrote it before, we've got something similiar in museum. To be exact - it is almost identical, the same shape, same pattern, but in a bit better condition. I would like to agree with Allan words, quoted by Andrew, but one thing is bothering me: saying Victorian, do we mean English or just European from the 19th century (sometimes called Historical Period) - ANDREW: this would be great if Allan could explain this further . And this is of course partizan - I would even call it spontoon (sponton) which is a type of partizan BTW.

And the photos of museal piece:

Regards!

[Rick]

Sure , let's call it the Historical Period as I'm sure the interest in copies of old arms as decorative pieces was not confined to England .

What I find interesting is that the tips on both examples are broken (I suspect children at play).

I'm still sticking with my trash dump theory for the one in poor condition .
It is simply amazing what people throw out when times or fashion change ; as a former bottle digger I can attest to this phenomenon .

[wolviex]

But I would like to calm down our forum friend drzzzz...zzzz - of course there is no doubt that his sponton is in need of restoration, and the pattern isn't well visible - but such objects, 19th century "fakes" from so-called Historical period or Victorian era, are sometimes quite expensive. Even if they are only decorative, theatratical or anything else - today they are antiques. On some internet Auction Houses in Europe you can find such objects - some of them realy ugly, rusty and rude - but with prices over 200 Euros. Some of them (but real nice) are even of 2500 Euros price! So cheer up, anyway (between us I realy don't know how much it could be worth, and even if I knew, we can't talk about it here.... )

Regards!

[Ian]

Those two examples are remarkably similar.

Wolviex -- is your example a cast specimen? Seems I can see the "flash" at the join marks, especially in the center of the curlicues next to the socket.

Ian.

[wolviex]

Ian: it seems to be cast. Especially the ornaments, in my opinion, couldn't be made by artist hand personally - it seems to be only a pattern (let's call it this way) from the cast form.