Swedish-Norwegian Naval Cutlass M1800

[celtan]

FYP

[Jim McDougall]

This is very interesting and a sturdy, handsome piece. I'm curious about the identification as a cutlass, and wonder if this might be of the type hangers known as pioneer falchions in Europe about mid 19th century. The style of the blade and the vestigial upward, downward opposed quillon terminals seem of those also.
I recall a Dutch sword of this type I once acquired dated 1845, and I thought it was a cutlass, but it was discovered to be an infantry hanger, and of course probably had in fact been carried aboard ship as it was found in Australia.

While this is most likely Swedish/Norwegian it seems more in line with these hangers of mid 19th century rather than c.1800. The British M1804 cutlass with the well known double disc guard was sent abroad in some numbers, and among others, I think there was a Swedish version (Gilkerson, p.84) but am uncertain whether it was identical to the British.

The brass mounted leather scabbard with hanging lug also corresponds to German and Austrian swords of mid 19th century in this category.

What is really fascinating about this sword is the distinctly cleft pommel, which of course recalls the Ottoman yataghan. In trying to imagine what influence would cause this to occur on a Swedish sword, the little known conflict between Sweden and Tripoli between 1798-1803, with the contrastingly well known Barbary Pirates. While obviously thrown in here as wild speculation, it was interesting to consider even with only slight likelihood of any connection.

The question remains....is the Swedish/Norwegian identification substantiated is some reference......and what in the world was the cleft pommel for?

Thank you so much for posting this fascinating and handsome sword Celtan!

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Jim,

I agree it does look like a pioneer sword, specially the mid 19th C. ones from Austria.

Yep. it's fully IDed a a Naval Sword (not a cutlass, though) in p.267 of H. Wither's book "World Swords 1400-1945", on the chapter about "Naval Swords".

Indeed, I saw recently an EB auction of one, IDing. same a a swedish infantry sidearm, from the russian-swedish wars in Finland. And yet I believe the seller didn't know squat about this blade. He actually let it go for 15% of its appraised book value!

But then, isn't that the kind of a deal we ourselves dream about? The buyer was indeed a very lucky bloke!

: )

M

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Celtan,
Thank you for noting the source for the identification. I thought I had some reference here in the bookmobile on Swedish arms, but apparantly those books did not 'make the flight'. I do have the handy Wagner 'pocket reference' though! I wasn't aware of Mr. Withers book on world swords, but apparantly he does present good comprehensive reference. I know that he is at present writing a book on Scottish weapons, which I'm looking forward to.

I think the term cutlass is likely misleading in the 19th century, as these sidearms were probably more utility weapons than for combat. This is of course why the heavy shellguards gave way to the open and functional grip, and the quillon terminals are simply vestigial decoration. These were probably used much in the way of the Dutch infantry swords I mentioned, or the 'falchions' used by Austrian sappers in about the mid 19th century. I think the only combat potential for these would have been of course on land, in operations much as Marines, but just a thought without more research.

You're very right on the pleasant experience of finding a 'sleeper' ! This is truly the key benefit of expanding ones knowledge on these weapons, so that you will have the upper hand in those 'Kodak moments' ! I still treasure those of my own experience from years ago, and the exhaustion of trying to keep my composure in not giving myself away in completing the deal....and the explosion of jubilation and relief when it was done!!!

On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature.

All best regards, and thanks again for posting this!
Jim

[chevalier]

the swedes had contact with the ottomans during the 17th-18th centuries as evidenced by this article


http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...connection.htm

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On the curious cleft pommel, any ideas? I'm sure its again either vestigial or decorative, but it would be interesting to hear thoughts or references on this feature.


Jim

Hi Jim and Manolo ,
I too am curious....it reminds me of the 'eared pommels' on a number of Eastern swords/daggers, it would help grip...so perhaps just functional ?

Regards David

[celtan]

HUGGARE svensk, m/1810 för Gotlands nationalbeväring, läderbalja

Wiki:
History

The regiment was created in 1811 when it was decided to organize Nationalbeväringen på Gotland (later Gotlands nationalbeväring) after having experienced the Russian occupation of the island in 1808–1809. The unit was 6,781 men strong and consisted of three artillery companies and 43 companies of infantry and rangers. Gotlands nationalbeväring was reformed into two separate units, Gotlands infanteriregemente and Gotlands artillerikår, in 1887.

[kisak]

Yup, that's "Gotlandshuggaren", the m/1810. As for the identification as cutlass, that's pretty much just the most direct translation of the Swedish designation (huggare). The pommel, as far as I know, is unique amongst Swedish models.

Expanding a bit on the "odd Swedish things" with possible oriental roots-theme, an officer named Hafström designed a few different models for the Swedish army and Navy in the 19th century (adopted models range from 1838 to 1885 that I know of) with a "half-leafblade" design which seems pretty unique as far as European 19th century blades go, or at least as far as I've seen. has anyone seen anything else like them in Europe around that time? Any ideas what might have inspired him?

The pictures shows the army's "Fascine knife" m/1848 (replaced the "cutlass" as the standard infantry sidearm IIRC), and a mid-century saber which I've seen attributed both to Stockholm's city militia, and Stockholm's police.

[celtan]

Thanks Kisak,

BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book?

Best

M

[Ed]

A throwback, perhaps, to the Celtic eared pommel?

[celtan]

The orientation wouldn't be right. All the antennas (Tene) I saw in galicia were oriented parallel to the blade, this one is perpendicular. Thhe reason may have been to help the wielder be able to hit more easily with the blade's flat side, like a hammer, or for crowd control...

I've seen some arabic and hindi weapons with a bigger version of the hilt, perhaps to help pushing it into the hapless victim, or to prevent someone from removing it away from the owner's handhold..



M

[kisak]

Originally Posted by celtan

Thanks Kisak,

BTW, any idea why the M1810 is IDed as a M1800 naval weapon in Wither's Book?

Best

M

No idea. I've never seen anyone label it as such anywhere, and to the best of my knowledge there isn't any other Swedish sword designated m/1800 either.

[Jim McDougall]

Good observation Ed! I hadnt thought of that potential, but well placed. I am inclined to agree with Manolo though, the anthromorphic hilts were indeed quite different.
This still seems to be a vestigial reference to some external influence, and as with many such features often occurring in edged weapons, defies any practical explanation.
Trying to discover practical applications often brings almost bizarre ideas into play, such as the suggestion, still held some by some possibly, that the cleft in the shashka was to use as a rifle stand to support the barrel (much like the separate component I believe arquebusiers used).
It seems there are drilled holes in at least one side of the cleft in Manolo's example (I cant see the other). That only increases the mystery.

The mystery remaining is the well asked question, why would a weapon that clearly follows the general shape and features of mid to latter 19th century forms be classified as an 1800 or even 1810 model? The cutlass misnomer seems understandable, and as I have noted, these dual purpose weapons were more likely to be used in the 'fascine' property by sappers than to serve as an onboard cutlass, with those 'high seas' combat days gone by.

Kisak, is there an identification resource cited for these pieces? As I noted earlier I don't seem to have Swedish references, so it would be helpful for myself and others who would like to pursue the study of those weapons further.

On the observation on the Hafstrom weapon designs of the 19th century, these sound interesting and I'd like to see examples of some of these to discuss. I've really never heard of him or the designs, but it sounds fascinating. It does seem that in many cases, neoclassic designs and decorative features are incorporated into edged weapons, I believe primarily due to thier profound traditional iconic status, especially during the 19th century. Good examples are the French sword designs such as the swords of the early 19th century recalling the gladius, and copied in the U.S. M1833 artillery officers sword.
If I'm not mistaken, the blade on the M1848 fascine knife has distinct similarity to bellied blades of ancient Mediterranean weapons such as the falcata and kopis. Even the term 'fascine' recalls the profound Roman symbolism in the fasces, though in modern parlance refers to the more utilitarian bundles of sticks and branches used in constructing emplacements.

[kisak]

I'm afraid all my sources on these are in Swedish. Svenska Blankvapen by Olof P Berg (six volumes) would be my primary source here (I don't think it's been translated), complemented by the exhibits at the Army Museum here in Stockholm, and in some cases auction descriptions.

The m/1810 and m/1848 both appear in all three, but as for the saber I posted I only have a few auction lot descriptions to go by, so that one is still somewhat unconfirmed.

Regarding the m/1810, Berg is of the opinion that it was manufactured at Wedevåg's Bruk in 1809, delivered to Kungl. Kommerskollegiet (~"Royal commerce office" or some such), and finally sent off to Gotland where they were adopted as the m/1810. That it was indeed taken into service around that time seems generally accepted at least.

I can't say I see what those drilled holes would be, and I don't think any of the m/1810 I've seen has ever had any such.

The "fascine" part of fascine knife is, according to the army museum, referring to the stick bundles, and these would have been more tools for cutting wood than weapons for cutting flesh. The m/1810 might not have been quite so far gone in the development towards the tool side, but was probably not far behind. IIRC both Berg, The Army museum, and Seitz (in Svärdet och Värjan som Armévapen, another good one for those who can handle the language) speaks of how the infantry sidearms became more and more camp tools, and less of weapons, from the early parts of the 18th century and onwards.

I'm attaching a few pictures of various Hafström-models that I've taken at the Army Museum. The two nearly identical (with a normal saber to the left) are m/1842 and m/1842-47 for cavalry troopers (according the the army museum, the guard was modified slightly to make more room for the hand inside it). These are the largest Hafström-models adopted.

The two Hafström-sabers with two pipeback sabers on the right side are the m/1852 for officers at the Royal Guard on foot (left), and the m/1853 for sergeants at the Royal Guard on foot.

The highly decorated one finally is an infantry officer's saber from the 1860's, made for general S. Lagerberg.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the outstanding response Kisak, and for posting the photos of these beautiful swords. The Swedish examples are really quite a rarity here in the U.S. so all the more attractive!
I really appreciate your going into detail and adding references also. The Berg reference is of course really the key reference for these weapons, and I wasn't aware there were six volumes! What a treasure they must be!!

I agree with your observations, and it does seem these weapons quickly became more utilitarian as firearms technology advanced in the 19th century. As always, they certainly were appreciated when an emplacement was overrun, in which case virtually anything became a weapon, so great to have on hand.

Thank you once again,
All the best,
Jim

[kronckew]

i really like those kopis shaped ones, i'll need to keep my eyes open for one.
remind me a lot of my more humble one


the fascine was a bundle of sticks used to support earthworks, here's one from yorktown, i had the pleasure of being stationed there for three months. this one would have been filled with earth and arranged vertically as shown to produce a bulwark or ramparts, early sandbags.


fascine knives/ swords were popular with artillery and engineers.

[celtan]

That's a beautiful Falcata! The spanish army still uses this shape.

BTW, we are going to reenact Yorktown in a couple weeks at the Battle of the Hook. Any pointers on making those fascines?

Best

Manuel

[celtan]

Nice to have you around Kisak. For some reason, either I have gravitated towards scandinavian blades, or they have "followed me home" somehow.

The fact is that I have a few of these beasties:

A danish hussard sabre, an sverige M1831 and two M1853 Huggares , a M1805 British Boarding cutlass that might have seen service aboard the swedish-norway navy, a Huggvarja 1685/1832, a Briquet similar to the danish 1777, and a bilobate heavy sword that migh be ca. 17th C....

I'll post some soon.

Regards

M

Originally Posted by kisak

I'm afraid all my sources on these are in Swedish. Svenska Blankvapen by Olof P Berg (six volumes) would be my primary source here (I don't think it's been translated), complemented by the exhibits at the Army Museum here in Stockholm, and in some cases auction descriptions.

The m/1810 and m/1848 both appear in all three, but as for the saber I posted I only have a few auction lot descriptions to go by, so that one is still somewhat unconfirmed.

Regarding the m/1810, Berg is of the opinion that it was manufactured at Wedevåg's Bruk in 1809, delivered to Kungl. Kommerskollegiet (~"Royal commerce office" or some such), and finally sent off to Gotland where they were adopted as the m/1810. That it was indeed taken into service around that time seems generally accepted at least.

I can't say I see what those drilled holes would be, and I don't think any of the m/1810 I've seen has ever had any such.

The "fascine" part of fascine knife is, according to the army museum, referring to the stick bundles, and these would have been more tools for cutting wood than weapons for cutting flesh. The m/1810 might not have been quite so far gone in the development towards the tool side, but was probably not far behind. IIRC both Berg, The Army museum, and Seitz (in Svärdet och Värjan som Armévapen, another good one for those who can handle the language) speaks of how the infantry sidearms became more and more camp tools, and less of weapons, from the early parts of the 18th century and onwards.

I'm attaching a few pictures of various Hafström-models that I've taken at the Army Museum. The two nearly identical (with a normal saber to the left) are m/1842 and m/1842-47 for cavalry troopers (according the the army museum, the guard was modified slightly to make more room for the hand inside it). These are the largest Hafström-models adopted.

The two Hafström-sabers with two pipeback sabers on the right side are the m/1852 for officers at the Royal Guard on foot (left), and the m/1853 for sergeants at the Royal Guard on foot.

The highly decorated one finally is an infantry officer's saber from the 1860's, made for general S. Lagerberg.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by celtan

...

BTW, we are going to reenact Yorktown in a couple weeks at the Battle of the Hook. Any pointers on making those fascines?

Best

Manuel

for those who are interested,

1781 Oct 3: Battle of the Hook at Gloucester Point VA -- - French Brig. Gen. de Choisy with French troops and a battalion of 800 Virginia militiamen clashed with 1,000 men under British Lt. Col. Dundas at Gloucester VA -- across the York River from Yorktown. The allied presence cut off British ability to forage for supplies outside their defensive perimeter and prevented an easy breakout from the siege. The major battle action was between Lauzun's legion and Tarlton's light cavalry.


unfortunately i was a marine engineer in the coast guard and not an army engineer, our base was at the end of the road that went to the yorktown battlefield, near wormley creek. went by the battle field every day for 3 mo. while i was on a course there.

the redoubts stormed by alexander hamilton were impressive in that they were small for the no. of redcoats in them, and the courage it took to advance on them under fire, cutting thru the wooden spike defenses (abbatis) and then taking them by bayonet...

redoubt 9 in foreground, 10 in background right.

excerpt from historical text:

So far the fight [Allied 1781 siege of Yorktown] had been carried on by the artillery alone; but now the infantry had its part. The two British redoubts close to the river on the east side of the town prevented the carrying of the second parallel to the river's edge, and so they had to be taken. On the night of the 14th the task was given to two corps – the American light infantry to attack the redoubt on the right by the river bank, the French chasseurs and grenadiers the one on the left, about a quarter of a mile from it. The Gatinois and Royal Deux-Ponts regiments furnished 400 men under Colonel Deux-Ponts. The American force was made up of men drawn from Lieutenant Colonel de Gimat's battalion of Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode Island troops, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Hamilton's New York and Connecticut men, and Lieutenant Colonel John Laurens's from New Hampshire, Massachusetts, and Connecticut men, 400 in all, with an added corps of sappers and miners, Hamilton in general command. Substantial reserves were provided for both detachments.
At eight o'clock the French advanced in columns by platoons, 58 chasseurs, carrying scaling ladders and fascines to fill the ditches in the van. Three or four hundred feet from their objective, they were challenged by a Hessian sentinel with, "Wer da?" – Who goes there? No reply was made, and the enemy opened fire. A strong abatis had to be forced, and a number of men fell before the pioneers cut through it. Then the chasseurs dashed upon the redoubt and began mounting the parapet under a heavy fire from the garrison of 120 British and Hessians under Lieutenant McPherson. A charge by the defenders was met by a volley from the French and a countercharge. The Hessians threw down their arms, the French shouting "Vive le Roi!" The fort was won in less than half an hour of fighting. The attackers lost 15 killed and 77 wounded; the enemy, 18 killed and 50 sound or wounded men taken prisoners.
The American attack on the other redoubt was begun at the same time This work, the smaller of the two, was held by 70 men under Major Campbell. The Americans advanced with unloaded muskets and fixed bayonets. Led by a forlorn hope of 20 men of the 4th Connecticut under Lieutenant John Mansfield, they crashed through the abatis without waiting for the sappers to cut it away, crossed the ditch, and swarmed the parapets in spite of the bayonets of the garrison. In ten minutes they overcame all resistance, with a loss of 9 killed and 31 wounded, including Gimat and several other officers.

Immediately upon the taking of the two redoubts fatigue parties set work extending the second parallel. By morning they had pushed it cc include the captured works. The next day Cornwallis wrote to Clinton: "My situtation now become very critical;..."



i've seen the battlefield at dawn, with the fog and the mist rising, and walked the redoubts, the presence of history was so strong, you could hear the ghostly sounds of battle if you tried hard enough.

i then went on to be stationed in new orleans for three years, and have seen the battlefield at chalmette where the pride of the british empire's troops fresh from defeating napoleon in the peninsular campaign were met by a small rabble of militia, indians, ex-slaves, pirates, and a few regulars hiding behind bales of cotton, and gabions and handed them a defeat they would never forget. unfortuneatley it occured after the war was technically over & did not affect the treaty, but did teach the brits a valuable lesson in humility.

[celtan]

War has a way of showiing humility to both vanquished and victors...

Thank you very much for the vivid yet concise portrayal of the Yorktown battle.

M

[Ed]

I was at the Hartford Antique Arms Show today and I saw a dagger with the same pommel. They called it a "Rifleman's Dagger". The idea was that you jabbed it in the ground and the pommel served as a rifle rest.

[kronckew]

Well, I finally found one, apparently a Danish variant, looks like the tip has a false edge unlike the swedish versions, and a sligtly different grip, more curved at the pommel... Brass guard is not S shaped, Vendor had a Swedish one too, but this one grew on me. Wending it's way from the EU, hopefully as I type. More detail on arrival.

[OsobistGB]

Unfortunately I will disappoint you The item you show has nothing to do with Denmark/Sweden also.It definitely looks like a copy.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by OsobistGB

Unfortunately I will disappoint you The item you show has nothing to do with Denmark/Sweden also.It definitely looks like a copy.

Ah, well. Contacted my vendor, he has another, Swedish M1848, with struck off out of service serial number and vendor mark A&E.H (A & E Holler, Solingen) he will send in it's place. He still thinks the first is a proper Danish variant. (He's from the Baltic region and had a few)

If at first you don't succeed, try again. I'll keep this one in any case.

[OsobistGB]

The second one is original!If your trader is from Lithuania or Latvia (I constantly confuse them) he may not know.I guarantee 100% that such a model does not exist in either Denmark or Sweden.

[MacCathain]

Kronckew, your faskinkniv is troop marked for T3, the Norrlands trangregemente 1893-2000 (Norrlands Trainkår). This is a train regiment, a unique force whose purpose was to handle the logistical requirements of troop equipment and supply.

T3 originated as the Royal Norrland Train Battalion, raised in 1893. Headquarters were moved from Stockholm to Sollefteå in May, 1898. In 1902, T3 became the Royal Norrland Train Corps, which was raised to a Regiment status on July 1, 1949. In 1994, the Regiment was reduced to a Corps, which in 2000 was merged into the I5 as the Norrland Train Battalion, which was disbanded in 2005.

That maker’s stamp on this weapon is, as you indicate, A. & E. Holler, which operated between the years 1839 and 1869. This is unusual, as most of the contracts for the manufacture of the m1848 faskinkniv were let to Swedish makers. I have an identical A. & E. Holler faskinkniv marked to the 14th infantry regiment (Hälsinge regiment).

There is no mention of a Danish version of this weapon in Møller's Gamle Danske Militær Våben, so I suspect it is either unrecognized or someone's fantasy.

Here is a photo of a trooper of the Norrlands trangregemente from my collection of CdVs. He wears the faskinkniv.

[kronckew]

Thanks, all. cool pic.Love seeing how they were actually worn. Sword knot looks very unusual, wonder what colour it was...

I gather that many were also in naval service and had a small anchor mark. Train Reg. info is very interesting and unusual.

[MacCathain]

The anchor stamp on Swedish arms was indicative of manufacture at Eskilstuna, Sweden, and did not indicate naval service. Eskilstuna was a major industrial center and had the nickname "Stålstaden" (Steel City).

I have three Swedish cavalry sabres from the first half of the 19th century that each bear the anchor stamp on the hilt or scabbard. If they ever rode the waves, they would have done so briefly and in a shipping crate.

[Victrix]

Hi all,

Just to make sure we don’t get mixed up and confused here I post photos of: 1) Swedish naval cutlass m/1851, 2) Swedish Faskinkniv m/1848, and 3) the so-called “Gotland hanger” m/1810. Now why anyone would want to make fake faskinkniv m/1848 beats me.

[OsobistGB]

These are part of my Swedish - Svenska arméns faskinkniv m/1848,infanterihuggare og Huggare m/1810 för Gotlands nationalbeväring