Arabian sword, new or old? opinions please

[eftihis]

Dear friends,
I have this sword for some time, i believe is an arabian saif, it has silver scabbard with typical handmade engravings but also stamped parts, and a blade that while does not look particulary old, does not look comletely new either. Towards the end of the blade the blade line is not straight like someone has sharpened many times the edge in this point. In the place the blade meets the hilt there are remains of dirt like the sword has been cleaned and polished. There is also a number in a part of the scabbard that i guess it was used for assempling the parts.
I have seen recent tourist pieces and they do not have this quality and not this blade. Could this been an old tourist piece?
ANy help or suggestions about its age?
Many thanks!

[Tim Simmons]

Hi , I do not think the stampings are modern machine made,I must go I should be working.Tim

[derek]

Hi Tim,

Definitely some new elements. I've seen nearly identical scabbards made recently in Iran, and very similar from Yemen as well. The The guard looks old to me. The blade I don't know. It is sharp? It looks like an old trade blade, but it's really bright.

BTW, I knew an antique dealer in the UAE that regularly got a lot of "refurbished" swords from Iran. Often the blade would be old and there were old parts mixed in with repairs. The work was really good, but it was new. I still have some pics archived on CD somewhere.....

-d

[tom hyle]

The white adhesive is not something I've seen on old pieces, though European cutlers' pitch is often a pale cream colour. The grips don't seem old to me, and I suspect this sword has had a fairly recent rehilting/refurbishing. The blade looks like an old one that has been cleaned by recent soft-buffing (notice the pits; notice also that it has been cleaned under the lagnets, which is nearly impossible while the sword is assembled.). I have come to doubt the usual diagnosis of these multifullered thinnish blades as European, especially when the grooves run off the base of the blade; I think it's an Islamic blade; it closely resembles N African blades I've seen. The only part of the scabbard that stands out as a stamping, rather than hand-embossed and graven is the narrow reinforcing band you show a close-up of. It seems to be a modern repair on an old sheath. There is another that looks similar (2 such bands total), but there's no close-up of it. I can't see the tang-band well enough to tell if it is stamped or hand-decorated. The guard appears to be old. I'm utterly baffled as to any idea of this as a tourist sword. My guess concerning the wave near the tip is that it is not so much the result of longterm repeated sharpening, but a single incident of sharpening out a damage.

[eftihis]

Dear friends,
Thanks for your comments. I attach some more photos!
I think the parts near the opening of the scabbard (i attach photos) are also stamped, arent they?

[M.carter]

Hello Eftihis,

Your sword seems almost identical to mine! Although mine seems to be fairly new (the scabbard had this silver blackness (I really dont know what its called, like soot, it went away after rubbing it with some Silvo)), the blade on your sword seems to have seen sharpening, and maybe even use (why not?, beduoins of arabia still used them up to the early 20th century, royal bodyguards of the Al-Saud's carry them everywere they go!). I must say the hilt on yours looks better than mine (i dont like the look of rivets).

I wouldnt call these swords as tourist items (besides, whats in Saudi Arabia for tourism anyway?! ). The low-quality syrian versions of these are certainly tourist items (this is not saying Syrian work is junk, some Syrian peices ive seen I think are the best blades the middle east can offer these days), you find them all over the middle east, but these Saudi swords are quite rare, even in the middle east for three things: 1. Few are made, 2. They are hard to trade and transport (swords are illegal in most ME countries), 3. They can be quite expensive, especially if you get one with pure gold fittings and ivory hilt slabs.

[Tim Simmons]

Lawrence of Arabia,it could well be 1920s+.The black stuff is called oxidisation and if left will come back.The blackening can be created easily with a solution of warm water and rock sulpher and will make nearly any metal look old, likewise rust can also be advanced but thats another story.Tim

[tom hyle]

M Carter, is there white adhesive on yours? Sure looks the same.
Saudi Arabia is probably the most betouristed country on Earth, certainly one of them, due to the hadj.

[Battara]

I agree. The hilt and scabbard look old. The scabbard and metal on the hilt are silver - sunshine cloth from a jewelery store can take the tarnish off. The hilt also looks like bone. The blade - different story - not sure.

[derek]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

M Carter, is there white adhesive on yours? Sure looks the same.
Saudi Arabia is probably the most betouristed country on Earth, certainly one of them, due to the hadj.

Good point, Tom! Carter is speaking from experience about exporting though, I'm sure. I found that things move in and out of Dubai without too much trouble, as long as you use courier or freight container (This may have changed recently). If you use Dubai Post its all over. They won't allow anything to leave, and to receive a blade took an act of God (almost, I worked for a guy who worked for Sheikh Mohammed and he dropped a few names at the PO for me). Saudi may be a different matter - Oman is for sure. ESPECIALLY if you are talking about indigenous antique blades. In Oman it is against the law to take old blades out of the country. They are prized over the beautiful work of the jambiya scabbards. The Iranians that I met smuggled swords out of their country by boat at night. The would ride along side a big freight ship crossing the Gulf and literally throw bundled swords to the crew from small boats in the dark. They risked serious trouble if caught. I heard the same about Iraq, but this was before Saddam ran for the spider hole.

Anyway, Carter. you say your blade is new? It looks like these two came from the same "source". Do you know any specifics about where yours came from?

-d

[derek]

I found some of the blades I photographed in Dubai. Here they are. Almost all have "refurb" work done on them. some of it is obvious, others I would only know because the dealer let me into his world and told me. I'll throw in a few "Bablonian" fake statues as well. I also saw some fantastic authentic (and forged) coins. These guys are good. Better than we often realize.

[derek]

There is one sword I'm remembering that had scabbard work very similar to both of yours. I'm having trouble finding it, but I'll try and post. I remember that it was new work on the one I photographed.

-d

[M.carter]

Hello,

My sword has the same adhesive that Eftihis has got on his sword. Just to check how hard it was, I poked it with strong pressure with a needle, it did not go in, so I would say that would be fairly strong (although the hilt on mine is fixed with rivets, not just resin). I do not know exactly where my sword has been made, a Kuwaiti friend of mine gave it me as a gift, I asked him where in Arabia has it been made, he told me Abha. I'm pretty sure that my sword and Eftihi's came from the same 'source', as they are identical, except for the hilts. I can surely say that this sword is my favourite.

I also was browsing some local antiques shops, one of them had two more of these, except the ones he had had straight, plain blades.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by derek

Good point, Tom! Carter is speaking from experience about exporting though, I'm sure. I found that things move in and out of Dubai without too much trouble, as long as you use courier or freight container (This may have changed recently). If you use Dubai Post its all over. They won't allow anything to leave, and to receive a blade took an act of God (almost, I worked for a guy who worked for Sheikh Mohammed and he dropped a few names at the PO for me). Saudi may be a different matter - Oman is for sure. ESPECIALLY if you are talking about indigenous antique blades. In Oman it is against the law to take old blades out of the country. They are prized over the beautiful work of the jambiya scabbards. The Iranians that I met smuggled swords out of their country by boat at night. The would ride along side a big freight ship crossing the Gulf and literally throw bundled swords to the crew from small boats in the dark. They risked serious trouble if caught. I heard the same about Iraq, but this was before Saddam ran for the spider hole.

Anyway, Carter. you say your blade is new? It looks like these two came from the same "source". Do you know any specifics about where yours came from?

-d

Yeah, exporting (even importting sometimes) is a real pain in some ME (UAE an exception). I always wanted to buy the AT1518 but that would not be allowed in the country im in. Any sharp objects, firearms, airguns, paintball guns, fireworks are not allowed to be imported inside Kuwait, although all these things are readily available inside, which is a real shame, as I cannot buy any sword from ebay or whatever.

[derek]

I found Abha in KSA near the Red Sea, south of Mecca and across from Ethiopia. So, I wonder if they do the work there, or if it may have come from somewhere else, like Yemen.

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by derek

I found Abha in KSA near the Red Sea, south of Mecca and across from Ethiopia. So, I wonder if they do the work there, or if it may have come from somewhere else, like Yemen.

It may or may not be from abha, im not sure. Have you ever heard of the annual Janadriya festival?

[derek]

Only that it's a cultural festival in KSA and happens to fall around the same dates as the Dubai Shopping festival, which is another cultural event. I went to the Global Village during the shopping festival two years in a row and found MANY excellent blades offered by sellers in the Yemen pavillion. I found Arabian, African, Indo-persian, they had it all. If only I didn't have 2 kids to feed , I would have cleaned them out.

Are there good blades to be found at the Janadriya Festival?

-d

[M.carter]

Originally Posted by derek

Only that it's a cultural festival in KSA and happens to fall around the same dates as the Dubai Shopping festival, which is another cultural event. I went to the Global Village during the shopping festival two years in a row and found MANY excellent blades offered by sellers in the Yemen pavillion. I found Arabian, African, Indo-persian, they had it all. If only I didn't have 2 kids to feed , I would have cleaned them out.

Are there good blades to be found at the Janadriya Festival?

-d

There are excellent blades to be found in Janadriya. Swordsmiths come from all Saudi arabia to Janadriya during this festival and produce excellent swords and Jambiyas (as cultural heritage).

[A.alnakkas]

Sorry for bringing back the dead!

This saif is probably from the King Faisal era. The blades are usually forged, thick and are ment for business. After the King Faisal era, the saifs became more Ardha oriented and come with thin (but forged) blades that would buzz and are flexible, the fittings also fits the era. Newer ones have almost identical fittings but are less artistic.

These examples (King Faisal era. Probably even before King Faisal..) are actually impressive, as they are very faithful to the original badawi, I personally consider them authentic and are collectable. Some of them come with stamped blades even.

[ALEX]

I agree with A.Alnakkas,
I also consider them authentic, mid/late 20th C and original to the style.
Here's another similar sword with older Caucasian blade.