Jungayyan Ivory Sulu Twistcore kris with gold and silver wire inlay

Bill M · 8th March 2008, 01:27 AM

Recent acquisition and one of my favorite pieces. A seven wave blade 20 3/4 inches long showing twisted lamination on the center and bounded by twisted wire of gold & silver.

The asang-asang (metal band on the guard) is made of swasa,

The grip area of the handle has a traditional cord wrap lacquered black (recent replacement, but traditional style) and a swasa ferrule with dark patina.

Ivory Kakatua / jungayyan pommel has a honey color. Very unusual to find these rare delicate pommels undamaged.

Dark hardwood scabbard with silver panels on the top section showing some floral designs. Another unusual feature is these silver panels are on BOTH sides. Usually only on one side.

The lower part of the scabbard has 3 silver bands with similar designs as the upper panels.

Sulu late 1800.

And the panel on the other side

Robert · 8th March 2008, 01:48 AM

Bill, Please post pictures.

Bill M · 8th March 2008, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Bill, Please post pictures.

Didn't you see my avatar?

Sorry, got interrupted. Give me a minute. Ok.

Ferguson · 8th March 2008, 11:15 AM

Simply wonderful.
Steve

Flavio · 8th March 2008, 11:24 AM

When a man is so lucky to see something wonderful like this piece is, words are useless

Bill M · 8th March 2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

When a man is so lucky to see something wonderful like this piece is, words are useless

Thank you all.

katana · 8th March 2008, 12:57 PM

What a beauty

kino · 8th March 2008, 03:50 PM

I can see why it's one of your favorites. It's one to behold.
Is the asang-asang a replacement? To me it's a bit oversized, maybe it's the color playing tricks on my eyes. It's making it stand out.

Congrats!

Norman McCormick · 8th March 2008, 04:35 PM

Hi Bill,
I am interested in inlaying techniques therefore would it be possible to post a close up of the blade where the wire ends and the inlay groove is empty. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

CharlesS · 8th March 2008, 04:42 PM

Now this is gor-geeeeez!

Battara · 9th March 2008, 04:26 AM

Impressive! Is this a former Cato piece?

Norman - if you are comming to Timonium, I will be addressing inlay in my presentation....

DaveS · 9th March 2008, 05:19 AM

Jose: As far as i know, and i could be wrong, i don't think Bob had any twist-cores in his collection............Dave.

Gavin Nugent · 9th March 2008, 07:41 AM

Thanks for the email Bill, I have done image comparisons and I must say that yours is an extraordinary example.
I am curious at to what the rest of the detail of the handle looks like?

regards

Gav

Bill M · 9th March 2008, 02:51 PM

Dave,

I believe that you are right about Cato not having twistcores in his book. Don't think that my piece was in his book. Wish it was!

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks for the email Bill, I have done image comparisons and I must say that yours is an extraordinary example.
I am curious at to what the rest of the detail of the handle looks like?

regards

Gav

Here is more detail.

Really looks like a bird from the top.

VVV · 9th March 2008, 03:01 PM

Nice, nice, nice

The hole looks like it's a tooth, maybe one of the seabased (but I am not good at separating different kind of ivory)?

Michael

Bill M · 9th March 2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Nice, nice, nice

The hole looks like it's a tooth, maybe one of the seabased (but I am not good at separating different kind of ivory)?

Michael

Hi Michael,

Though I am not good at separating kinds of ivory, I would guess that it came from a mature female African elephant. It has that grain and striations.

I think that the hole is an attachment point. Most of the others I have seen had a plug here. Some are plugged across the pommel.

I managed to take a picture using the fiber optic ringlight from my microscope on my camera.

Battara · 9th March 2008, 10:46 PM

The scabbard looks like one from Cato.....

Norman McCormick · 10th March 2008, 12:41 AM

Battara, would love to hear your presentation re inlaying techniques but unfortunately I live on the other side of the Pond, Scotland to be precise, so not a simple trip. Am in the initial process of inlaying script in a blade with copper wire so was interested in seeing how different cultures approached this type of decoration technically.
Regards,
Norman.

Bill M · 10th March 2008, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Bill,
I am interested in inlaying techniques therefore would it be possible to post a close up of the blade where the wire ends and the inlay groove is empty. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman,

I will be happy to do this. I have a microscope and will take some real closeups. I tried with the camera, but was not happy with the results. Will get some images this week.

Norman McCormick · 10th March 2008, 01:52 PM

Hi Bill, am looking forward to your photos, many thanks for your time and effort.
Regards,
Norman.

Bill M · 11th March 2008, 03:56 AM

Hi Norman,

Not being certain of what you want to see, I have posted a few macro and micro images.

First the macro

Moving in closer

Still Closer

Into Micro, please excuse the color shift, I may need a different filter on my light source. Here is a 10x of the place where the two lines join at a point.

Micro of the gold and silver wire.

Micro where the wire has come loose showing the channel. If you want more showing the channel, I can oblige.

Micro of the wire.

Norman McCormick · 11th March 2008, 09:53 PM

Hi Bill,
Many thanks for the photos, I've been experimenting with inlaying copper into steel and what I wanted to see was how the grooves were prepared for inlaying. On European weapons it would appear the groove is undercut using a special tool forming an inverted T so that when the inlay is forced into the space it expands into the T thereby forming an anchor for the metal inlay. From what I can see this is not the case in this blade and internal 'roughness' of the groove is sufficient to grip the inlay if it is laid in with enough force. This is how I have done it and it seems to work very well. Is there any evidence of an adhesive in the groove? I was thinking of possibly a similar substance to that used in India for Tulwar hilts. I also wanted to see how smooth the edges of the grooves were as this is a difficult thing to achieve with hand tools although only really apparent upon close inspection and not terribly noticeable at normal viewing distances. Thanks again for the pictures and would you mind if I copied them into my photo file for future reference?
Regards,
Norman.

katana · 11th March 2008, 11:36 PM

Hi Bill,
the magnified images are really interesting

There seems to be crystaline 'structures' (ringed in photo) in the blade .... any idea what they could be

David

.

Bill M · 12th March 2008, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Bill,
the magnified images are really interesting

There seems to be crystalline 'structures' (ringed in photo) in the blade .... any idea what they could be

David

.

David,

I will look deeper with higher magnification. and try some different angles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Bill,
Many thanks for the photos, I've been experimenting with inlaying copper into steel and what I wanted to see was how the grooves were prepared for inlaying. On European weapons it would appear the groove is undercut using a special tool forming an inverted T so that when the inlay is forced into the space it expands into the T thereby forming an anchor for the metal inlay. From what I can see this is not the case in this blade and internal 'roughness' of the groove is sufficient to grip the inlay if it is laid in with enough force. This is how I have done it and it seems to work very well. Is there any evidence of an adhesive in the groove? I was thinking of possibly a similar substance to that used in India for Tulwar hilts. I also wanted to see how smooth the edges of the grooves were as this is a difficult thing to achieve with hand tools although only really apparent upon close inspection and not terribly noticeable at normal viewing distances. Thanks again for the pictures and would you mind if I copied them into my photo file for future reference?
Regards,
Norman.

Norman, you are perfectly welcome to use the images anyt way you like!

I want to try some more images at different angles and using fiberoptic ringlight as well as the dual goosenecks. I don't think there is an inverted "T." It looks like it is mainly just a groove with the metal pounded in as you suggested.

Bill

kino · 15th March 2008, 07:09 PM

[QUOTE=Bill MarshIvory Kakatua / jungayyan pommel has a honey color. Very unusual to find these rare delicate pommels undamaged.
QUOTE]

Undamaged ones are really hard to find. They do look delicate and vulnerable to the elements, susceptible to chipping and breaking just by handling.
DaveS., has several that he takes to events and lets the public handle them. You're a brave man Dave.

Bill M · 15th March 2008, 09:39 PM

I have personally seen DaveS pieces, but they were mounted in a shadowbox with a glass front. DaveS and LonnaS have one of the most awesome collections I have ever handled --- about two years ago. Probably is even better, now!

I cringe when my friends want to handle my pieces, particularly these barongs. The first one has the lower end broken off and smoothed (I think)

I may make some shadowboxes also!

DaveS · 16th March 2008, 03:36 AM

Bill: That has to be one of the prettist pieces of ivory i've seen. Basically the same style that one usually sees of this type, but it's the color that makes this one especially good. I've been told that color is just due to normal ageing of the ivory, but we have many old ones that are basically white with just a little bit of color. So who knows. Maybe someone on the forum knows the reason why some hilts turn this color and why some don't
Albert: I guess over the years Lonna and I have been lucky that none of our pieces have ever been dropped. It could be that people are forewarned that in no uncertain terms that they can handle most anything they want, but "you breakee, you fixee", and it will cost you a lot money. The only pieces that have ever been broken have been from my own clumsyness......ooops!!!!!!!!. Can't wait to see your new pieces at the Oregon Knife Show this year.............Dave.

Battara · 17th March 2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

I've been told that color is just due to normal ageing of the ivory, but we have many old ones that are basically white with just a little bit of color. So who knows. Maybe someone on the forum knows the reason why some hilts turn this color and why some don't

Well actually I understand that it depends upon the amount of sulfur present in the environment. The more sulfur is present and the warmer it is, the more it will react with the ivory and turn it darker and more orange. In silver it will turn it dark.

Hope this helps.

VANDOO · 19th March 2008, 08:09 PM

VERY INTERESTING CLOSE UPS OF THE INLAY TECKNIQUE IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF THE TWISTED WIRE INLAY ON THE MOROCCAN WEDDING NIMCHA BLADES. I HAD NOT SEEN THAT TECKNIQUE USED ON MORO WEAPONS BEFORE

ANOTHER FACTOR CAUSING IVORY TO TURN COLORS IS CONTACT WITH HUMAN SKIN, THE OILS. ACIDS AND WHATEVER ELSE FOUND IN THE ENVIRONMENT CAN OVER TIME CAUSE A VERY ORANGE COLOR. AFRICAN IVORY BRACELETS ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE ,SOME MORO WEAPONS WITH A MORE SIMPLE IVORY HANDLE ALSO HAVE A GOOD RICH PATINA. I SUSPECT THE REASON FOR LESS PATINA ON THE VERY FANCY DELICATE IVORY POMMELS IS THAT THEY WERE NOT WORN EVERYDAY AND WERE HANDLED VERY CAREFULLY BY THE GRIPS ONLY TO HAVE SURVIVED INTACT ALL THESE YEARS. VERY BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLES ALL , TIME TO MOP THE DROOL OF MY KEYBOARD

Bill M · 19th March 2008, 09:54 PM

Thanks for the compliments, all. Especially DaveS, who has one of the finest collections I have ever seen, including some really awesome jungayyan kris!

I hunted a long time to find a good ivory jungayyan kris. Finally I have all three; kris, barong and kampilan with ivory.

I am a happy camper!

8th March 2008, 01:27 AM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Jungayyan Ivory Sulu Twistcore kris with gold and silver wire inlay Recent acquisition and one of my favorite pieces. A seven wave blade 20 3/4 inches long showing twisted lamination on the center and bounded by twisted wire of gold & silver. The asang-asang (metal band on the guard) is made of swasa, The grip area of the handle has a traditional cord wrap lacquered black (recent replacement, but traditional style) and a swasa ferrule with dark patina. Ivory Kakatua / jungayyan pommel has a honey color. Very unusual to find these rare delicate pommels undamaged. Dark hardwood scabbard with silver panels on the top section showing some floral designs. Another unusual feature is these silver panels are on BOTH sides. Usually only on one side. The lower part of the scabbard has 3 silver bands with similar designs as the upper panels. Sulu late 1800. And the panel on the other side Last edited by Bill Marsh; 8th March 2008 at 02:28 AM.

9th March 2008, 07:41 AM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Bill Thanks for the email Bill, I have done image comparisons and I must say that yours is an extraordinary example. I am curious at to what the rest of the detail of the handle looks like? regards Gav

11th March 2008, 11:36 PM	#23
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Bill, the magnified images are really interesting There seems to be crystaline 'structures' (ringed in photo) in the blade .... any idea what they could be David . Attached Images

15th March 2008, 09:39 PM	#26
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I have personally seen DaveS pieces, but they were mounted in a shadowbox with a glass front. DaveS and LonnaS have one of the most awesome collections I have ever handled --- about two years ago. Probably is even better, now! I cringe when my friends want to handle my pieces, particularly these barongs. The first one has the lower end broken off and smoothed (I think) I may make some shadowboxes also! Attached Images

8th March 2008, 01:48 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Bill, Please post pictures.

8th March 2008, 11:15 AM	#4
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Simply wonderful. Steve

8th March 2008, 11:24 AM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	When a man is so lucky to see something wonderful like this piece is, words are useless

8th March 2008, 12:57 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	What a beauty

8th March 2008, 03:50 PM	#8
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,003	I can see why it's one of your favorites. It's one to behold. Is the asang-asang a replacement? To me it's a bit oversized, maybe it's the color playing tricks on my eyes. It's making it stand out. Congrats!

8th March 2008, 04:35 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Bill, I am interested in inlaying techniques therefore would it be possible to post a close up of the blade where the wire ends and the inlay groove is empty. Many thanks. Regards, Norman.

8th March 2008, 04:42 PM	#10
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Now this is gor-geeeeez!

9th March 2008, 04:26 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Impressive! Is this a former Cato piece? Norman - if you are comming to Timonium, I will be addressing inlay in my presentation....

9th March 2008, 05:19 AM	#12
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Jose: As far as i know, and i could be wrong, i don't think Bob had any twist-cores in his collection............Dave.

9th March 2008, 03:01 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice, nice, nice The hole looks like it's a tooth, maybe one of the seabased (but I am not good at separating different kind of ivory)? Michael

9th March 2008, 10:46 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	The scabbard looks like one from Cato.....

10th March 2008, 12:41 AM	#18
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Battara, would love to hear your presentation re inlaying techniques but unfortunately I live on the other side of the Pond, Scotland to be precise, so not a simple trip. Am in the initial process of inlaying script in a blade with copper wire so was interested in seeing how different cultures approached this type of decoration technically. Regards, Norman.

10th March 2008, 01:52 PM	#20
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Bill, am looking forward to your photos, many thanks for your time and effort. Regards, Norman.

11th March 2008, 03:56 AM	#21
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hi Norman, Not being certain of what you want to see, I have posted a few macro and micro images. First the macro Moving in closer Still Closer Into Micro, please excuse the color shift, I may need a different filter on my light source. Here is a 10x of the place where the two lines join at a point. Micro of the gold and silver wire. Micro where the wire has come loose showing the channel. If you want more showing the channel, I can oblige. Micro of the wire.

11th March 2008, 09:53 PM	#22
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,598	Hi Bill, Many thanks for the photos, I've been experimenting with inlaying copper into steel and what I wanted to see was how the grooves were prepared for inlaying. On European weapons it would appear the groove is undercut using a special tool forming an inverted T so that when the inlay is forced into the space it expands into the T thereby forming an anchor for the metal inlay. From what I can see this is not the case in this blade and internal 'roughness' of the groove is sufficient to grip the inlay if it is laid in with enough force. This is how I have done it and it seems to work very well. Is there any evidence of an adhesive in the groove? I was thinking of possibly a similar substance to that used in India for Tulwar hilts. I also wanted to see how smooth the edges of the grooves were as this is a difficult thing to achieve with hand tools although only really apparent upon close inspection and not terribly noticeable at normal viewing distances. Thanks again for the pictures and would you mind if I copied them into my photo file for future reference? Regards, Norman.

15th March 2008, 07:09 PM	#25
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,003	[QUOTE=Bill MarshIvory Kakatua / jungayyan pommel has a honey color. Very unusual to find these rare delicate pommels undamaged. QUOTE] Undamaged ones are really hard to find. They do look delicate and vulnerable to the elements, susceptible to chipping and breaking just by handling. DaveS., has several that he takes to events and lets the public handle them. You're a brave man Dave.

16th March 2008, 03:36 AM	#27
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Bill: That has to be one of the prettist pieces of ivory i've seen. Basically the same style that one usually sees of this type, but it's the color that makes this one especially good. I've been told that color is just due to normal ageing of the ivory, but we have many old ones that are basically white with just a little bit of color. So who knows. Maybe someone on the forum knows the reason why some hilts turn this color and why some don't Albert: I guess over the years Lonna and I have been lucky that none of our pieces have ever been dropped. It could be that people are forewarned that in no uncertain terms that they can handle most anything they want, but "you breakee, you fixee", and it will cost you a lot money. The only pieces that have ever been broken have been from my own clumsyness......ooops!!!!!!!!. Can't wait to see your new pieces at the Oregon Knife Show this year.............Dave.

19th March 2008, 08:09 PM	#29
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY INTERESTING CLOSE UPS OF THE INLAY TECKNIQUE IT KIND OF REMINDS ME OF THE TWISTED WIRE INLAY ON THE MOROCCAN WEDDING NIMCHA BLADES. I HAD NOT SEEN THAT TECKNIQUE USED ON MORO WEAPONS BEFORE ANOTHER FACTOR CAUSING IVORY TO TURN COLORS IS CONTACT WITH HUMAN SKIN, THE OILS. ACIDS AND WHATEVER ELSE FOUND IN THE ENVIRONMENT CAN OVER TIME CAUSE A VERY ORANGE COLOR. AFRICAN IVORY BRACELETS ARE A GOOD EXAMPLE ,SOME MORO WEAPONS WITH A MORE SIMPLE IVORY HANDLE ALSO HAVE A GOOD RICH PATINA. I SUSPECT THE REASON FOR LESS PATINA ON THE VERY FANCY DELICATE IVORY POMMELS IS THAT THEY WERE NOT WORN EVERYDAY AND WERE HANDLED VERY CAREFULLY BY THE GRIPS ONLY TO HAVE SURVIVED INTACT ALL THESE YEARS. VERY BEAUTIFUL EXAMPLES ALL , TIME TO MOP THE DROOL OF MY KEYBOARD

19th March 2008, 09:54 PM	#30
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thanks for the compliments, all. Especially DaveS, who has one of the finest collections I have ever seen, including some really awesome jungayyan kris! I hunted a long time to find a good ivory jungayyan kris. Finally I have all three; kris, barong and kampilan with ivory. I am a happy camper!