Need info ASAP, novice on ground in Tuareg country!

xerg · 14th November 2007, 01:24 AM

Hi all, I usually would prefer to do a lot of exhaustive research about a new topic such as this myself, but as I currently find myself in Lome, Togo paying through the nose for sloooooooooooooooooow internet, I thought I'd entreat you all to give me some of the basics that you know.

I'm interested in purchasing a Tuareg Takouba sword that I saw in a boutique today. It's listed at 60mil CFA (~130USD) and is in fairly poor condition. It looks almost -exactly- like the second one pictured on this site:

http://www.he-artefakte.de/Afrika/Et...egwaffenE.html

The scabbard is broken at the narrow part near the tip (and is currently affixed by a winding of orange thread which looks sorta cool). There is an obvious green patina from what I assume is the brasswork on the scabbard (it looks real, unlike a lot of the touristy pieces you see that are covered in light green paint).

Also, the blade is VERY rusty. What's the general thought on rust? Is it better to leave it as is in the way you wouldn't refin a Les Paul flametop? Or is it ok to clean it up? If so, what would be the best way to go about cleaning it up? The salesman, a Togolaise man, suggested sandpaper but I think he just wants to make the sale. The blade has what I've gathered to be the traditional three decorative "fullers" and two half-moon/lighting shaped markings near the hilt (they're small-- a little less than the size of a dime).

Other than that, though, the leatherwork is pretty nice and the blade seems to be pretty well attached to the hilt. I wish I could upload photos but, again, the internet here is terribly slow.

What do pieces like this go for? I ask since the boutique is non-negotiable and I wonder if 130$ is a good price. I am currently living in the region and have had other offers that started WAY higher (on the order of 700-1000$) for only slightly better quality goods (although that's Tuaregs for you, always starting astronomically high-- I've never put in the time to bargain with them since the starting prices seemed prohibitive to me). It'd be nice to just swoop on this one if the price seems ok and if the blade might be able to be restored to some semblance of attractiveness.

Dom · 15th November 2007, 06:10 PM

Hi alone xerg

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerg

I'm interested in purchasing a Tuareg Takouba sword that I saw in a boutique today...snip.. It looks almost -exactly- like the second one pictured on this site:
http://www.he-artefakte.de/Afrika/Et...egwaffenE.html

the one quotes at € 590.- ?? .... you saw listed at 60mil CFA in a shop

Quote:

Originally Posted by xerg

..snip.. I ask since the boutique is non-negotiable and I wonder if 130$ is a good price.

-non-negotiable ? it's a joke

usually, the lack of bargaining is considered as insulting,
but I refuse even, to discuss if the merchant has incredible pretentions

- good price ... the one you may afford without to be fresh out of money

no official rate, just the game of offer/request

leave your heart talk to you, and forgot a little bite your reason

take in consideration the fact that it should be easy to found on the spot craftsmen (old peoples preferably) to refurbish the dommages

regards

à +

Dom

dennee · 15th November 2007, 06:17 PM

At the risk of being sued by a bazaar stall operator, my advice would be to skip it. Takoubas are pretty plentiful at all levels of condition, and I probably wouldn't even accept one free in a heavily rusted condition if it weren't pretty clear that it was a truly old and quality piece. Tourist versions have been produced for many years. You can probably get a better sword in the U.S. at about the same price, without having to ship or drag it through customs.

Emanuel · 15th November 2007, 07:09 PM

HI Zerg,

I will echo the words of Denee and Dom: always negotiate in that part of the world, and 130USD is too much for a simple takouba in poor shape. You can periodically find decent piece on ebay for less. In which country are you? Read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000106.html you can find decent takouba's at half of what the boutique was asking.

Regards,
Emanuel

ariel · 15th November 2007, 07:45 PM

No haggling? I almost laughed ! He knows you are a visitor and you, likely, were too enthusiastic about the piece of rusty junk... Haggling is the oxygen of trade in that part of the world!!!

Trust me: within a week you will find a better, older and cheaper Takouba on e-bay: there are tons of them!

VANDOO · 16th November 2007, 02:43 AM

ALL THE ABOVE ADVICE IS GOOD BUT BUYING ON EBAY IS NOT THE SAME AS BUYING IN THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN AFTER A FIERCE BIT OF GOOD NATURED HAGGELING.

I GENERALLY USE SEVERAL TECKNIQUES EITHER PICK UP A ITEM AND MAKE WHAT YOU CONSIDER A LOW OFFER NOT YOUR BEST BEFORE ASKING THE PRICE. OR OFFER A BIT LESS THAN HALF WHAT THEY ARE ASKING AND HAGGLE FROM THERE TO A REASONABLE PRICE. IF THE FIRST PRICE OFFERED IS SO HIGH ITS CRAZY I DON'T BOTHER.
I FIND IT FUN TO BUY SOMETHING AT THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN AND ENJOY THE HAGGLEING ,YOU CAN BE SURE EVEN IF THE SELLER SAYS YOUR PRICE IS TOO LOW AND HIS CHILDREN WILL STARVE. IF HE ACCEPTS IT HE HAS MADE MORE SELLING IT TO YOU THAN HE COULD HOPE FOR SELLING TO A LOCAL. BEFORE BUYING BE SURE TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN GET YOUR ITEMS THRU CUSTOMS OF THAT COUNTRY AND AT HOME. BUY ONE OF THE DARK PURPLE TUREG ROBES AND HANG IT ON THE WALL AT HOME BEHIND SWORDS AND DAGGERS FOR A NICE DISPLAY. BEWARE OF THE DYE AS IT WILL COLOR YOU OR ANYTHING THEY COME IN CONTACT WITH BLUE(THAT IS WHY TUREG ARE OFTEN CALLED THE BLUE MEN OF THE DESERT)

SUPERFICIAL BROWN RUST IS NOT A PROBLEM ON THESE BUT ONE WITH HEAVY BLACK BUMPS AND SCALES WILL BE BADLY PITTED. MOROCCAN LEATHER SCABBARDS ARE VERY BAD ABOUT RUSTING METAL. GOOD LUCK

xerg · 20th November 2007, 10:24 PM

Hi all! Thanks for the advice. In the end, I didn't have enough time in country to go back and take a second look at the thing. I don't feel bad for having missed it after reading this thread, however. I'm sure I'll find a better piece somewhere in the next year or so.

I'm a bit chagrined that you all assumed that I don't know about bargaining! Fair enough, I suppose, what with the way the post was phrased and my admitted ignorance as to all things sword-like. The store that I saw the item at, however, was an upscale boutique with fixed prices. Almost every halfway developed financial capital in West Africa has at least one such place and most of them don't go in for serious haggling (in fact, they consider it to be an affront if you try). The one I happened on in Togo was called "Bric a Brac" and is located on the main road by the ocean. I think the owner is an elderly Ethiopian gentleman, but the dude actually running the store was a VERY pushy and arrogant Togolaise who was the sort of dude that flashes two cell phones and didn't go in for the discoute whatsoever.

No matter. I take heart in the thought that I'll be in West, Central, and North Africa for a while and have plenty of time to find a good piece. One thing that was especially nice to hear is that it was possible in 2000 to buy s "good quality, typical takoubas sell for as cheaply as $50". I wonder how much that price has gone up in the intervening 7 years? I don't think I'll be going to Agadez any time soon, sadly, due to the ongoing rebellion in the region. Maybe next year if things calm down. Does anyone have a sense of pricing outside of Tuareg central? I have access to the following countries on a semi-regular or more basis:

Benin
Burkina
Cameroon
Cote d'Ivorie
Senegal
Morocco
Togo
Ghana

I'm sensing that Morocco, Togo, and Burkina would be the best bets (although the artisnal market in Burk is mostly new stuff made for the tourist market).

Does anyone know of any other resources that would be a good place to start researching the basics of African weapons? Maybe a nice book or something? I really am starting from a blank slate here but am very interested in learning.

Thanks!

Emanuel · 20th November 2007, 10:44 PM

Hi Xerg,

Excuse our assumption, your post left things a bit unclear in regards to haggling. I'm not sure you'd find much Touareg work in Morocco, but you'd probably be able to find other decent Berber work. Search this forum for "berber sword", "nimcha" and "flyssa". If you can find Algerian flyssa's at fair prices, drop me a line!

The only book I can recommend on African weapons is "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, because it's the only dedicated one I own. You can also look at George Cameron Stone's "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times" for a good overview of most edged weapons.

Regards,
Emanuel

Dom · 26th November 2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hi Xerg, I'm not sure you'd find much Touareg work in Morocco, but you'd probably be able to find other decent Berber work. Search this forum for "berber sword", "nimcha" and "flyssa". If you can find Algerian flyssa's at fair prices, drop me a line!
Regards,
Emanuel

Dear Emanuel
allowed me to bring some precision(s)

about Touareg dispatching (historical roots, and present presence)

the Touareg population 1 to 1,5 millions peoples was strewed over 4 States covering 2 millions square kilometres,
- 30 000 in Libye,
- 50 000 in Algérie,
- 500 000 à 600 000 in Mali,
- 700 000 à 750 000 in Niger
but also ...a very old community in North of Burkina Faso ± 20 000
due to circonstances as well as; dryness 70/80's, civil war 90's pushed tribes residing in Mali and Niger to emigrated to
- Algeria 60 000
- Libya 10 000
- Burkina Faso 40 000
- Mauritania 40 000 ..... Mauritania is the South of Morocco

about "berber sword", "flyssa",
the "flyssa" is more dedicated to Kabyle, who are "Berbers", but mountain dwellers from North of Algeria, and have nothing related to Touareg,
the opportunity to get one "flyssa" at over 2000 km from where it's should be localized will be rare

I spent 6 years in deep South Algeria (94 to 97 & 01 to 04)
my trips gave me chance to find and buy some Beber jewellery, but
I never get an opportunity to made an offer for a "flyssa" for the simple raison, than I never saw one

but plenty takouba for tourist, even if those was very few

in fact, I believe that we have to have more chance to found in Occident at reasonable price some good stuff, than on spot

Best Regards

à +

Dom

Emanuel · 26th November 2007, 04:50 PM

Hello Dom,

Thanks for the precision. You confirm my thoughts that there aren't significant numbers of Touareg in Morocco.

By "berber sword" I was referring to these types of swords: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...48&postcount=9 not the flyssa. I am somewhat obsessed with the flyssa, hence my request that Xerg look out for one. I figured something is bound to show up in some souk or other, especially considering the large tourist industry in Morocco.

Whereabouts in the South did you live? I remember a bit about Tamanrasset. I'm born in Oran, on the coast, so I feel a keen need to go back and spend some time in Algeria. I'm hoping that in Petite Kabylie at least there may still be some old blades to be found.

All the best,
Emanuel

Dom · 26th November 2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Whereabouts in the South did you live? I remember a bit about Tamanrasset. I'm born in Oran, on the coast, so I feel a keen need to go back and spend some time in Algeria. I'm hoping that in Petite Kabylie at least there may still be some old blades to be found.

All the best,
Emanuel

Hi Emanuel
my HQ was established in Hassi Messaoud,
and my customer's camps was; In Amenas, In Salah and some where (in fact middle of nowhere ...

),
but also Hassi R'Mel, not to far from Gardahyia (capital of M'Zaab country)

Hassi Messaoud souks are completely fresh out of artifacs, as I said,
I found some in Ouargla, mainly jewellery, nothing in In Amenas souks, as well as Hassi R'Mel, Gardahyia,
just one targui dagger from Tibesti (called "loï bo") that I get from In Salah

forget to expect to found some old blade from "petite or even grande" Kabylie, too many officers from my staff was coming from those areas,
they was knowing my adiction

but never been able to find me something ... and you know ... when you are the "boss" every staff try to please you

à +

Dom

14th November 2007, 01:24 AM	#1
xerg Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7	Need info ASAP, novice on ground in Tuareg country! Hi all, I usually would prefer to do a lot of exhaustive research about a new topic such as this myself, but as I currently find myself in Lome, Togo paying through the nose for sloooooooooooooooooow internet, I thought I'd entreat you all to give me some of the basics that you know. I'm interested in purchasing a Tuareg Takouba sword that I saw in a boutique today. It's listed at 60mil CFA (~130USD) and is in fairly poor condition. It looks almost -exactly- like the second one pictured on this site: http://www.he-artefakte.de/Afrika/Et...egwaffenE.html The scabbard is broken at the narrow part near the tip (and is currently affixed by a winding of orange thread which looks sorta cool). There is an obvious green patina from what I assume is the brasswork on the scabbard (it looks real, unlike a lot of the touristy pieces you see that are covered in light green paint). Also, the blade is VERY rusty. What's the general thought on rust? Is it better to leave it as is in the way you wouldn't refin a Les Paul flametop? Or is it ok to clean it up? If so, what would be the best way to go about cleaning it up? The salesman, a Togolaise man, suggested sandpaper but I think he just wants to make the sale. The blade has what I've gathered to be the traditional three decorative "fullers" and two half-moon/lighting shaped markings near the hilt (they're small-- a little less than the size of a dime). Other than that, though, the leatherwork is pretty nice and the blade seems to be pretty well attached to the hilt. I wish I could upload photos but, again, the internet here is terribly slow. What do pieces like this go for? I ask since the boutique is non-negotiable and I wonder if 130$ is a good price. I am currently living in the region and have had other offers that started WAY higher (on the order of 700-1000$) for only slightly better quality goods (although that's Tuaregs for you, always starting astronomically high-- I've never put in the time to bargain with them since the starting prices seemed prohibitive to me). It'd be nice to just swoop on this one if the price seems ok and if the blade might be able to be restored to some semblance of attractiveness.

20th November 2007, 10:44 PM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Xerg, Excuse our assumption, your post left things a bit unclear in regards to haggling. I'm not sure you'd find much Touareg work in Morocco, but you'd probably be able to find other decent Berber work. Search this forum for "berber sword", "nimcha" and "flyssa". If you can find Algerian flyssa's at fair prices, drop me a line! The only book I can recommend on African weapons is "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, because it's the only dedicated one I own. You can also look at George Cameron Stone's "A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times" for a good overview of most edged weapons. Regards, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 20th November 2007 at 11:08 PM.

15th November 2007, 06:17 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	At the risk of being sued by a bazaar stall operator, my advice would be to skip it. Takoubas are pretty plentiful at all levels of condition, and I probably wouldn't even accept one free in a heavily rusted condition if it weren't pretty clear that it was a truly old and quality piece. Tourist versions have been produced for many years. You can probably get a better sword in the U.S. at about the same price, without having to ship or drag it through customs.

15th November 2007, 07:09 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	HI Zerg, I will echo the words of Denee and Dom: always negotiate in that part of the world, and 130USD is too much for a simple takouba in poor shape. You can periodically find decent piece on ebay for less. In which country are you? Read this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000106.html you can find decent takouba's at half of what the boutique was asking. Regards, Emanuel

15th November 2007, 07:45 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No haggling? I almost laughed ! He knows you are a visitor and you, likely, were too enthusiastic about the piece of rusty junk... Haggling is the oxygen of trade in that part of the world!!! Trust me: within a week you will find a better, older and cheaper Takouba on e-bay: there are tons of them!

16th November 2007, 02:43 AM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ALL THE ABOVE ADVICE IS GOOD BUT BUYING ON EBAY IS NOT THE SAME AS BUYING IN THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN AFTER A FIERCE BIT OF GOOD NATURED HAGGELING. I GENERALLY USE SEVERAL TECKNIQUES EITHER PICK UP A ITEM AND MAKE WHAT YOU CONSIDER A LOW OFFER NOT YOUR BEST BEFORE ASKING THE PRICE. OR OFFER A BIT LESS THAN HALF WHAT THEY ARE ASKING AND HAGGLE FROM THERE TO A REASONABLE PRICE. IF THE FIRST PRICE OFFERED IS SO HIGH ITS CRAZY I DON'T BOTHER. I FIND IT FUN TO BUY SOMETHING AT THE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN AND ENJOY THE HAGGLEING ,YOU CAN BE SURE EVEN IF THE SELLER SAYS YOUR PRICE IS TOO LOW AND HIS CHILDREN WILL STARVE. IF HE ACCEPTS IT HE HAS MADE MORE SELLING IT TO YOU THAN HE COULD HOPE FOR SELLING TO A LOCAL. BEFORE BUYING BE SURE TO MAKE SURE YOU CAN GET YOUR ITEMS THRU CUSTOMS OF THAT COUNTRY AND AT HOME. BUY ONE OF THE DARK PURPLE TUREG ROBES AND HANG IT ON THE WALL AT HOME BEHIND SWORDS AND DAGGERS FOR A NICE DISPLAY. BEWARE OF THE DYE AS IT WILL COLOR YOU OR ANYTHING THEY COME IN CONTACT WITH BLUE(THAT IS WHY TUREG ARE OFTEN CALLED THE BLUE MEN OF THE DESERT) SUPERFICIAL BROWN RUST IS NOT A PROBLEM ON THESE BUT ONE WITH HEAVY BLACK BUMPS AND SCALES WILL BE BADLY PITTED. MOROCCAN LEATHER SCABBARDS ARE VERY BAD ABOUT RUSTING METAL. GOOD LUCK

20th November 2007, 10:24 PM	#7
xerg Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7	Hi all! Thanks for the advice. In the end, I didn't have enough time in country to go back and take a second look at the thing. I don't feel bad for having missed it after reading this thread, however. I'm sure I'll find a better piece somewhere in the next year or so. I'm a bit chagrined that you all assumed that I don't know about bargaining! Fair enough, I suppose, what with the way the post was phrased and my admitted ignorance as to all things sword-like. The store that I saw the item at, however, was an upscale boutique with fixed prices. Almost every halfway developed financial capital in West Africa has at least one such place and most of them don't go in for serious haggling (in fact, they consider it to be an affront if you try). The one I happened on in Togo was called "Bric a Brac" and is located on the main road by the ocean. I think the owner is an elderly Ethiopian gentleman, but the dude actually running the store was a VERY pushy and arrogant Togolaise who was the sort of dude that flashes two cell phones and didn't go in for the discoute whatsoever. No matter. I take heart in the thought that I'll be in West, Central, and North Africa for a while and have plenty of time to find a good piece. One thing that was especially nice to hear is that it was possible in 2000 to buy s "good quality, typical takoubas sell for as cheaply as $50". I wonder how much that price has gone up in the intervening 7 years? I don't think I'll be going to Agadez any time soon, sadly, due to the ongoing rebellion in the region. Maybe next year if things calm down. Does anyone have a sense of pricing outside of Tuareg central? I have access to the following countries on a semi-regular or more basis: Benin Burkina Cameroon Cote d'Ivorie Senegal Morocco Togo Ghana I'm sensing that Morocco, Togo, and Burkina would be the best bets (although the artisnal market in Burk is mostly new stuff made for the tourist market). Does anyone know of any other resources that would be a good place to start researching the basics of African weapons? Maybe a nice book or something? I really am starting from a blank slate here but am very interested in learning. Thanks!

26th November 2007, 04:50 PM	#10
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Dom, Thanks for the precision. You confirm my thoughts that there aren't significant numbers of Touareg in Morocco. By "berber sword" I was referring to these types of swords: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...48&postcount=9 not the flyssa. I am somewhat obsessed with the flyssa, hence my request that Xerg look out for one. I figured something is bound to show up in some souk or other, especially considering the large tourist industry in Morocco. Whereabouts in the South did you live? I remember a bit about Tamanrasset. I'm born in Oran, on the coast, so I feel a keen need to go back and spend some time in Algeria. I'm hoping that in Petite Kabylie at least there may still be some old blades to be found. All the best, Emanuel