Grandfather's Kris...

[Nathaniel]

This is my Grandfather's....at least over 60-70 years old...

My Mom says that this is a dress/ ceremonial knife my grandfather was given to by her brother in Singapore......guessing it's from Malaysia...any comments...or information you might have about it...I took a close up of the emblem/ seal...it's written in Arabic...any translation???

The material seems to be some type of ivory...fittings are gold and the blade is silver...the blade is 19cm...25cm from handle to tip and 28cm when in it's sheath.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

This is my Grandfather's....at least over 60-70 years old...

My Mom says that this is a dress/ ceremonial knife my grandfather was given to by her brother in Singapore......guessing it's from Malaysia...any comments...or information you might have about it...I took a close up of the emblem/ seal...it's written in Arabic...any translation???

The material seems to be some type of ivory...fittings are gold and the blade is silver...the blade is 19cm...25cm from handle to tip and 28cm when in it's sheath.

Yes, this is a ceremonial piece from the Malaysian state of Selangor. The emblem is the coat of arms of Selangor, also known as "Darul Ehsan" (Abode of Sincerity).

The traditional culture of Selangor's Malay majority is influenced by those of Bugis, Johor, Minangkabau, Mandailing and Javanese ancestry. Did your grandpa's brother held an official post there?

Hilt and sheath are from elephant ivory. The blade is for decoration, but still aesthetically pleasing, gentle 5 (luks) meandering curves.

[Nathaniel]

Thank you very much Alam Shah for your very informative response. It was very interesting then to look up information on the location of that state of Selangor and see the state emblem of Wikipedia. Until now it has been a mystery as to the origins of this Kris.

To answer your question, my mother tells me that my great uncle was not an official in Selangor, but involved in the import/export business in Singapore ( know that is kind of vague...but that is just what my mom said). I may have to ask further some of my relatives if they know how he would have received this Kris, but I'm guessing it was as a gift.

Do you have any estimate as to how old this piece might be?

Would it be that rare?

So in the emblem of Selangor it looks like their are two kris in the seal?

My mother remembers it from her childhood...so it should be at least 50 + years old...maybe not 60-70 as I said above.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi Alam Shah,

Same place for Pewter, huh?
This is a very beautiful and highly stylized piece. Does the handle has any special meaning? Very geometrical and contemporary looking.

Thanks for your input.
Thank you Nathaniel for posting such a beautiful piece.

[David]

Well, the dress is fancy and valuable, being of ivory and gold, but i am afraid the blade leaves me a bit cold. It certainly isn't a traditional keris. Does anyone know the purpose of such a thing?
Antonio, the hilt is known a Jawa Deman, literally the "feverish Jawanese" and is a stylised image of a figure bent forward with his arm across his belly as if ill. It is a common style of keris hilt, especially from the Peninsula area, though i haven't seen one that uses this exact design before. This one seems even more geometric and less organic than the ones i have seen.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by David

Antonio, the hilt is known a Jawa Deman, literally the "feverish Jawanese" and is a stylised image of a figure bent forward with his arm across his belly as if ill. It is a common style of keris hilt, especially from the Peninsula area, though i haven't seen one that uses this exact design before. This one seems even more geometric and less organic than the ones i have seen.

David,

Thanks for the explanation. Although we agree on the blade, I wonder if the absence of a baca-baca is due to the scabbard design.
But I surely like the ensemble, and mainly the handle as it strikes me how nicely stylized it is.

Wonderful IMHO.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Hi Alam Shah,

Same place for Pewter, huh?
This is a very beautiful and highly stylized piece. Does the handle has any special meaning? Very geometrical and contemporary looking.

Thanks for your input.
Thank you Nathaniel for posting such a beautiful piece.

Yup, the well-known Selangor Pewter... there are some keris pewter-ware too, but not really following the aesthetics of a 'real' keris. As for the handle, it's a common form of malaysian northern peninsular.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Well, the dress is fancy and valuable, being of ivory and gold, but i am afraid the blade leaves me a bit cold. It certainly isn't a traditional keris. Does anyone know the purpose of such a thing?

What is a traditional keris?

Originally Posted by David

Antonio, the hilt is known a Jawa Deman, literally the "feverish Jawanese" and is a stylised image of a figure bent forward with his arm across his belly as if ill...

Is that what the stance symbolizes?
Why is it known as a Jawa Demam?

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Yup, the well-known Selangor Pewter... there are some keris pewter-ware too, but not really following the aesthetics of a 'real' keris. As for the handle, it's a common form of malaysian northern peninsular.

Right.
When when our son was about 7 or eight, we spent a month in Malaysia, starting at Penang where we stayed at a resort called Battu Ferringhi, they told me at the time it meant Portuguese Stones, so I'm just selling for the same price I bought it. Then we proceeded to Kuala Lumpur (what is the meaning of the city's name, please?) then we went to the Portuguese Settlement in Melacca (we call it Malaca) and saw the A Famosa built by Afonso de Albuquerque (Note that Alfonso is Spanish, not Portuguese) and we then went to Kota Kinabalu. It was a fantastic time we spent in Malaysia.

I appreciate whatever language meaning you can explain to me.
I noticed in Malaca that the school bus had a sign saying SEKOLA, which is very close to ESCOLA, the Portuguese word for School.
I'm interested very much in understanding why did the Portuguese words stuck, no matter how twisted, whereas a could not find any Dutch words.

Linguistics are very important to understand the language of affection.
In Macau, women used to go out with the Saraça which was of Malaysian origin.

In the late 1960's I travelled to Europe with someone who asked me what was my nationality and I told him, Portuguese: he immediately recited these four words: djanela, bandera, pistola, cadera. This is pure Portuguese and that really hit me hard.

The Japanese have incorporated about 400 Portuguese words in their vocabulary.
So you may understand my interest in linguistics involving influences of the Portguese in the Far East.

Then you have Emilio Salgari, the Italian writer who wrote Sandokan, the Tiger of Malaysia.


Kabhir Beddhi was the star. For many years, while my beard was black, many folks in Portugal called me Sandokan

Thank you in advance.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

... So in the emblem of Selangor it looks like their are two kris in the seal? ...

Selangor's emblem is an interesting amalgam of items that represent courage and royalty. The crescent moon and star in the centre represents Islam, the official religion. The central red spear, the Sambu Warna, the sword on the right, the Keris Pendek and the sword on the left, the Keris Panjang, are part of the state's Royal Regalia. The Jawi calligraphy in red reads the state's motto, 'Under the Protection of Allah'. A tali bengkung or broad belt worn by warriors of the state in ancient times appears below the motto.

[David]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Thanks for the explanation. Although we agree on the blade, I wonder if the absence of a baca-baca is due to the scabbard design.

Antonio, baca-baca is a feature to be found on Moro kris. It is not a feature that is usually on Malay or Indonesian keris so it has nothing at all to do with scabbard design.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by David

Antonio, baca-baca is a feature to be found on Moro kris. It is not a feature that is usually on Malay or Indonesian keris so it has nothing at all to do with scabbard design.

Oh, I see David.

My bad I'm not a specialist but have learnt one more thing.
Thank you

[David]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

What is a traditional keris?

Is that what the stance symbolized?
Why is it known as a Jawa Demam?

This is not what i understand as tradition material for a keris blade. It appears to be pewter, though i suppose it might be silver as originally posted. Either way, it isn't what i expect, or even want from a keris blade. Not knowing all that much about keris from this area i ask if this material has any significance, because to my untrained eyes this just looks like a very well dressed souvenir. Kind of like a mannequin in an Armani suit. So if there is some cultural significance to this blade i would love to hear about it.
Good questions about the Jawa Demam. I was merely stating what is commonly known for Antonio's sake, but i have always suspected there is a greater untold story behind the symbolism of this hilt form. The name implies the assumed symbolism, but what is really behind this facade? This could be a great thread question on it's own.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

When when our son was about 7 or eight, we spent a month in Malaysia, starting at Penang where we stayed at a resort called Battu Ferringhi, they told me at the time it meant Portuguese Stones, so I'm just selling for the same price I bought it. Then we proceeded to Kuala Lumpur (what is the meaning of the city's name, please?) then we went to the Portuguese Settlement in Melacca (we call it Malaca) and saw the A Famosa built by Afonso de Albuquerque (Note that Alfonso is Spanish, not Portuguese) and we then went to Kota Kinabalu. It was a fantastic time we spent in Malaysia.

Batu Feringgi, the ‘foreigner's rock’ is a beach for lovers and dreamers.
Kuala Lumpur, meaning ‘muddy confluence’,
Melacca, Malaca or Malacca, in local Malay languaga is, Melaka.

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

I appreciate whatever language meaning you can explain to me.
I noticed in Malaca that the school bus had a sign saying SEKOLA, which is very close to ESCOLA, the Portuguese word for School.
I'm interested very much in understanding why did the Portuguese words stuck, no matter how twisted, whereas a could not find any Dutch words.

Oh yes, the school bus... the yellow bus with the black lettering of SEKOLAH meaning 'school'.

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

In the late 1960's I travelled to Europe with someone who asked me what was my nationality and I told him, Portuguese: he immediately recited these four words: djanela, bandera, pistola, cadera. This is pure Portuguese and that really hit me hard.

~lol~
'bandera' is flag in Portugese, is it? If it is, in Malay, flag is 'bendera'.

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

The Japanese have incorporated about 400 Portuguese words in their vocabulary.
So you may understand my interest in linguistics involving influences of the Portguese in the Far East.

Unfortunately, I'm not a linguist, but it would be interesting to know how many words got incorporated into the Malay language...

[PenangsangII]

I happen to remember a few words:

Beranda, almari .......

[Nathaniel]

Here are some more views of the handle

[Nathaniel]

So the handle is a more stylized Jawa Deman, ...can anyone please then post some different pictures handles with Jawa Deman??????

[Nathaniel]

David...not that it's any big deal, but just to let you know the blade is at least coated silver....pewter has a different cast..more grayish...

It's not quite a well dressed souvenir, but as stated a dress/ceremonial piece...as Alam Shah questioned if this was from an Selangor official's and it's Selangor coat of arms is probably as far as you are going to get as any cultural significance....

The style tells us something about maybe more modern interpretations...or is it really..several more functional pieces can be seen with more abstract geometric lines... many people have a tendency to be attracted to the work of more realistic versus stylized/ abstract.

Yet, I remember my college art teacher once remarked that art/style should not always be appreciated for how closely it imitates reality, but rather when it presents a new interpretation of reality beyond a simple reflection...yet on the same note I must admit I'm not a fan of the more abstract...

The significance of it's materials...luxury...just like several other court/ official/ artistic pieces you see in many cultures...these are often the best preserved and what you will find in museums...often they where not meant really for function, but to be appreciated for it's beauty/ to show the wealth/ tastes of the owner...several of the Kreis in general are quite fancy/decorative...take a look at several of the pictures of handles you and others use as icons on the forum...maybe these where in fact the Armani of their day?

It is just my simple observation that most of the Kreis I see people showing off and willing to pay high $$$ for are in fact more of the Armani suits of days past...

I offer these comments only as food for thought to all...not as a challenging response to David.

I'm very thankful to everyone for their contribution to this thread. I have learned a good deal.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

So the handle is a more stylized Jawa Deman, ...can anyone please then post some different pictures handles with Jawa Deman??????

Hi Nathaniel,
Here's an example of something along the same lines of your hilt.
This one is Palembang style decorated and is from Sumatra.
It is a humble piece; nothing fancy or expensive.

Variations on this form abound throughout the area .
At some point this form morphs into a Garuda, or Sea Bird motif in the Celebes.

Hope this helps .

[David]

Nathanial, i think you may have misunderstood my line of questioning in regards to this piece.
Firstly all of this style of keris hilts are abstractions to one degree or another. My comments on your hilt are merely that it is an exacting form which i have not seen before (no big surprise) and that i find the your form to be more geometric in form with less organic lines that i have seen time and again in this type of hilt. Is it a more "modern" interpretation? Who knows. Below is my meager example, also in elephant ivory.

As for the blade, ceremonial keris are quite common. That is to say, keris that are designed with the sole purpose of serving some sort of ceremonial purpose. Yet in my experience these blades are usually still made in the same traditional process of layered steel and iron. AFAIK, a well made blade in these materials is a "luxury" in this culture, as much if not more so than a blade made of silver would be.
"The significance of it's materials...luxury...just like several other court/ official/ artistic pieces you see in many cultures...these are often the best preserved and what you will find in museums...often they where not meant really for function, but to be appreciated for it's beauty/ to show the wealth/ tastes of the owner...several of the Kreis in general are quite fancy/decorative...take a look at several of the pictures of handles you and others use as icons on the forum...maybe these where in fact the Armani of their day?"
I think you need to have a good look at what is really considered a beautiful keris blade, what is "appreciated for it's beauty to show wealth and tastes of the owner" within this culture. I think it would be unfair to compare this with what you see in other cultures because it just isn't the same.
Please understand that i am not doubting that this keris doesn't have some kind of ceremonial purpose within the context of Malay society, but i just don't know what that purpose is. From my limited experience a blade of traditional material is usually the first choice for both weapons meant for fighting as well as the ceremonial ones. I am unaware of the use of silver blades being used in any traditional context, ceremonial or otherwise. I have asked about this and am still waiting to be enlightened by one of our more knowledgable members on keris from the Peninsula.
As for the Armani suit, there is nothing wrong with that. Usually the dress should equally the quailty of the blade it holds. Often you will find somewhat over dressed keris, gussied up to encourage sales to inexperienced collectors. Sadly some folks fall for the glamor of such a presentation. But also it takes a discriminating eye to recognize the sublte excellence and beauty in keris of more restrained presentation and the perfection that can be found in the deceptively simplist of keris forms. Often enough those understated keris are deserving of their "Armani suits".

[PenangsangII]

The keris in question is neither ceremonial nor functional. It's a souvenir keris, normally produced in a bulk to commemorate certain events. Quite nice & expensive dress no doubt....

[Nathaniel]

Nice pictures...thank you for sharing that and continuing to share your thoughts

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

The keris in question is neither ceremonial nor functional. It's a souvenir keris, normally produced in a bulk to commemorate certain events. Quite nice & expensive dress no doubt....

This was my suspicion as well, though i don't know enough about the history to say what event it commemorates. Anyone have any ideas given the suspected age.
As such i am more inclined to refer to this blade as a "keris-like" object rather than an actual keris. Please understand that i don't say this to be harsh. There are many viewers of this forum with very little experience with keris. Antonio looks at this piece and remarks, "...such a beautiful piece". I will agree that as a object onto itself it does have beauty. But i fear that some might interpret such comments to mean that this is a "good" keris. A "good" keris it is not.
I am more of the mind that this is not a common souvenir piece, but perhaps some kind of presentation gift.
I am still a bit confused by Shahrial's initial response connecting this to a particular office. I would think that would be served by a "real" keris blade.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

... this is a ceremonial piece from the Malaysian state of Selangor. The emblem is the coat of arms of Selangor, also known as "Darul Ehsan" (Abode of Sincerity).

Hilt and sheath are from elephant ivory. The blade is for decoration, but still aesthetically pleasing, gentle 5 (luks) meandering curves.

My initial comments stated that it is a ceremonial piece... a more accurate term would be, a presentation piece.

Originally Posted by David

I am more of the mind that this is not a common souvenir piece, but perhaps some kind of presentation gift.
I am still a bit confused by Shahrial's initial response connecting this to a particular office. I would think that would be served by a "real" keris blade.

The emblem is the coat of arms of Selangor, also known as "Darul Ehsan" (Abode of Sincerity). Selangor is one of the richest state in Malaysia. Looking closely at the crude emblem works, it was probably commissioned to commemorate a certain event, by the state. Hence, the hilt, hilt cup, blade doesn't look much like the traditional keris parts we are familiar with.

[David]

Hi Shahrial. Thanks for clarifying your remarks.