Bugis keris

Bill · 10th March 2005, 07:53 PM

This poor guy has been bouncing around on ebay for some time. The dress looks receint, but the blade has appealed to me. Any comments, age?

DAHenkel · 10th March 2005, 10:30 PM

This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

Sorry Dave but, i'm not just trying to be contrary here. I realize this is a stickler point, but i have seen this kind of response coming up a bit lately. IMO, this this is a Javanese KERIS. It is the DRESS that is Peninsula. IMO it is the iron which is the keris. All else, regardless of how beautiful, is cultural presentation.

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:14 AM

The iron makes the keris blade, but the keris is a 'whole package' thing. The dress is as important as the blade.

Just like people. While Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are of extremely similar genetic makeup, its the 'cultural presentation' that makes one Chinese, Japanese or Korean. In fact, some Chinese have even crossed over to become Malay in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). They have a term for it "masuk Melayu". The same applies to Arabs and Indians who have, over the centuries, become integrated into the Malay identity and call themselves Malays.

Similarly, a keris blade (tilam upih for example) dressed in a Riau keris would be considered a Riau keris whereas the same blade dressed in a ladrangan Solo would be a Solonese keris.

The legendary Malay hero Hang Tuah went to Java in search of a keris. He found one -- Taming Sari -- and brought it back to Peninsula Malaysia. He dressed it in local sheath/handle styles as you can imagine he would not be caught dead wearing it with a Javanese ladrangan sheath in the Malay world. What is Taming Sari then? A Malay keris, as my fellow Malay friends would say.

tom hyle · 14th March 2005, 11:19 AM

Hmmmm "The blade IS the sword" I consider this a hard and fast rule, as far as my personal analyses go.
Now, I am not the most knowlegable here about the details of SE Asian culture, however, it seems to me to be particularly integral to the interactions of Oceanic East Asians with their swords (particularly k[e]ris and Nihon-to), from initial construction through simple maintanance and various re-dressings, including a single blade sometimes owning various dress for various occassions, that the sword is the blade and the dress is just that; dress, clothing, and any real man can tell you, the clothes do not make the man, and it's often considered unwise to think they do (as to judge a book by looking at its cover). Of course, with a sword the handle will influence its use, and the sheath will influence its protection, and I suppose it might even enjoy some jewellery, but all in all it remains the blade that truly is a sword.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 11:32 AM

Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense.
Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

tom hyle · 14th March 2005, 11:44 AM

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 12:09 PM

I'm not playing down the importance of the blade, or saying that the blade is not (part of) the keris. And I'm also not disrespecting the skills of the smith/empu who made the blade. Don't go to the other extreme.

Yes, the "blade is the sword", but what kind of sword?

Take me for example. I'm ethnically Chinese. Both my grandfathers came from China. But I'm not going to dress like a China Chinese and tell people that I am a Chinese National. Genetically, I'm the exactly the same as the people from China, much like Taming Sari was forged by a Javanese empu. But I'll tell you my identity is a Singaporean of Chinese descent, here in Southeast Asia, part of the Malay world.

So what happens to a keris that makes its way from Java to Peninsula Malaysia? Yes, the blade was made by a Javanese smith. But now that it has made its way to the Malay world, and dressed as such, is it still a Javanese keris? Would any Americans of German descent say that they are Germans? I think they call themselves Americans.

Take another example. The firanggi swords used by Indians. Blade may be European, but I'm sure you won't call it a European sabre/sword in its present dress. What about Ethiopian shotels?

DAHenkel · 14th March 2005, 02:13 PM

We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows.

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

AFAIK, the holes may be used for mystical purposes. In Van Duuren's The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, there is a mention on pg.11 about a keris with a little chink in its blade used as a charm.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

You're probably right there Dave, that would probably be a bit of a faux pas.

However, how easy would it be for me to just change the dress of this keris before entering the Kraton and then change it back again on my return to the Peninsula. The blade remains what it is regardless of the dress. Recently i believe you or Kai Wee posted a photo of yourselves in Malay dress complete with your keris. You guys looked stunning. i might add.

Add to this authentic dress the fact that you speak the language flawlessly and are totally emersed in the culture. Still, i have to wonder if when people see you there they think, "There goes a Malaysian man". At the end of the day you are still a human of the European gene pool dressed in Malay clothing. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but you are still who you are. You can't deny or erase your origin, nor do i think you should try. IMO it is the same with keris.

Kai Wee, i cannot see how i can put the dress of a keris on an equal footing with the blade. If that's what you mean by going to the other extreme, it's too late, am already there.

If i had just the blade it would not be at all unusual to commission new dress for it. Living outside the culture as i do i would probably choose to dress it most appropriately to the origin of the blade. If i lived within the culture i would probably dress it according to my own local custom. But have you ever heard of someone commisioning a blade for dress that had lost it's blade? That seems rather an unlikely scenerio. The angsar, the power that resides in the keris, resides in the blade, not the sheath. Yes, it is true that a keris is incomplete with a sheath, but that doesn't make the sheath as important as the keris itself. The dress can always be added. The blade, with it's angsar, is the heart of it all.
Actually, though you will find many well assimilated Americans, many will refer to themselves as African-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc., especially around the holidays that relate to their ancestrial countries of origin (try coming to Cincinati during OktoberFest and see how many people here are German). Note that in these configurations the ancestrial country comes before Americans.

When holes like this appear in the sogokan it is generally worn through from years of acid washing. These slits are so even though, that i suspect someone may have helped this process along with some additional filing. These are often confused with the mystical holes which Alam Shah refers to, know as cemplong (i have sometimes seen this written combong). Cemplong are clearly placed there by the empu and the owner of the keris is supposed to be able to obtain what he spys through the hole(s) while chanting the appropriate mantras.

tom hyle · 15th March 2005, 02:37 AM

Thanks

tom hyle · 15th March 2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows.

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

There does seem to be a growing fascination with "proper" dress; with seeing a Java k(e)ris in Java dress, etc, and this phenomenon does not seem to me to be old/traditional nor SE Asian.

Bluerf: those are interesting points that do seem to colour the issue. However, allow me to propose that they carry a greater weight with items, like the examples you give, where the blade has been incorporated into what is intended as at least a more-or-less permanent assembly; becoming in effect a part of a single object. This is prominantly not the case with k(e)ris.

Further, allow me to suggest that being raised in a culture foreign to your genes is more like being a java k(e)ris made from Balinese ore, while a person FROM China who moves to USA and learns N American English and wears N American clothes is more like a Bali blade in Java dress. Although Java and Bali are not that far apart, of course......

I might mention here, BTW, that I do consider there to be a significant difference it type between shotels (with native or foreign blades) and sabres mounted as shotels, as well as between sabre sayf and the straight usually foreign blades one occasionally sees so mounted. Firangi is interesting, as it seems, though locally influenced, to have been invented specifically for the foreign blades. But my understanding of its name is that, in India, it is being called an European sword.

DAHenkel · 15th March 2005, 02:37 PM

Guys, we're talking about keris here, not ethnicity or race or anything else. There are paralells sure but its still apples and oranges. Humans can be defined by others but they can also define themselves. A keris is an inanimate object. It cannot define itself any further than its features communicate to us meaning and significance.

I would put to you that people in general assess the keris, as with most other examples including these cited by BluErf, based on the sum total off its parts. A Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts is a Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts. Why limit ourselves to such a simplistic notion that, because the blade is Javanese, ergo the keris is Javanese? Certainly we can grasp the complexities of a Javanese keris, dressed in Terengganu parts?

I would further argue that people will only define things based on what they know about them. In that sense my argument about walking into the Kraton was a bit unfair. After all they could not reasonably be expected to recognize the blade as being Javanese when they could not see it. And once they were assayed of the facts they would certainly be most willing to accept that the keris was in fact a Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts. Of course they would have probably have gotten bored and gone for coffee half-way through the explanation but hey that's real world and we're speculatin' here.

Also, Tom I'm afraid I don't quite buy your arugement about permanent (or impermanent construction). Its fair to say that in almost every case, a Javanese keris that has been dressed in Malay dress has been permanently modified - precisely because the pesi of a Javanese blade would almost certainly have to be shortened to fit a Malay hilt. Sure, you could re-dress the blade back in Javanese dress but I would also suggest that most Javanese would be appalled upon removing the hilt and discovering that the blade had been permanently disfigured.

I leave you all will a fun image of the excesses of parts sharing...let it be a warning to us all

Alam Shah · 15th March 2005, 03:00 PM

Yikes...what an ugly combination.

The sheath is the most inappropriate combination. The pendok, instead of complimenting the sheath, spoils it.

BluErf · 15th March 2005, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kai Wee, i cannot see how i can put the dress of a keris on an equal footing with the blade. If that's what you mean by going to the other extreme, it's too late, am already there.

If i had just the blade it would not be at all unusual to commission new dress for it. Living outside the culture as i do i would probably choose to dress it most appropriately to the origin of the blade. If i lived within the culture i would probably dress it according to my own local custom. But have you ever heard of someone commisioning a blade for dress that had lost it's blade? That seems rather an unlikely scenerio. The angsar, the power that resides in the keris, resides in the blade, not the sheath. Yes, it is true that a keris is incomplete with a sheath, but that doesn't make the sheath as important as the keris itself. The dress can always be added. The blade, with it's angsar, is the heart of it all.
Actually, though you will find many well assimilated Americans, many will refer to themselves as African-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc., especially around the holidays that relate to their ancestrial countries of origin (try coming to Cincinati during OktoberFest and see how many people here are German). Note that in these configurations the ancestrial country comes before Americans.

You should read "The Spirit of Wood". There is 'semangat' in the wood too. And I might say the way you talk about sheaths and handles almost suggests that a well-made sheath and handle can be gotten easily. I hope you appreciate the pains and efforts that the miranggi/wood carver puts into acquiring the wood, curing it, selecting the best piece, and of course, actually carving it into a beautiful piece of artwork. First class keris sheaths and handles can melt you as easily as first class keris blades.

While no one would commission a blade to fit a sheath, I assure you that a beautiful sheath without a blade can always be fitted with a blade.

I've seen that done many times.

Your point on Americans of various origins -- you just made my point. What was the common link amongst them all -- "American"! So a Javanese keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Bugis keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Terengganu keris dressed in Terengganu parts are... [you can complete the sentence].

Hi Tom -- while clothes don't make a man, I'm sure good clothes would certainly open many doors. And I'm not quite sure what you meant by the proper dress phenomenon is not an old/traditional or Southeast Asian. If its with respect to kerises, it certainly is not right to say so. Discounting the 'tourist trade', the keris dress is defined by tradition/'adat'. If there is no 'adat', we could not have possibly differentiated between Sulawesi kerises from Balinese kerises from Riau kerises from Minang kerises, etc.

Montino Bourbon · 15th March 2005, 04:11 PM

You gentlemen might be amused by this keris; Blade bought from Capt. Smash on ebay, handle of African Pink Ivory wood by my friend in Bali, and sheath of rosewood trimmed with pink ivory and ebony by... yours truly!
(And by the way... it's a perfect fit, and doesn't rattle in the sheath, except to warn me of approaching danger!)

nechesh · 15th March 2005, 10:07 PM

Yes Kai Wee, i own "Spirit of Wood". Of course there is spirit and power in the wood. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "the way you talk about sheaths and handles almost suggests that a well-made sheath and handle can be gotten easily. I hope you appreciate the pains and efforts that the miranggi/wood carver puts into acquiring the wood, curing it, selecting the best piece, and of course, actually carving it into a beautiful piece of artwork."
I don't believe there is anything that i said that suggests i think that. Sheaths can be great works of art and beauty on to themselves. My ONLY point was that the iron is the MOST important part. Now it has been brought to my attention, and rightfully so, i believe, that we are in a sense both right, but coming from different perspectives. Certainly, to the collector a sheath can be as highly prized as the blade itself, perhaps more so in some cases. But from the cultural perspective, the blade will always be the most highly prized part. I guess it all depends on which side of the mountain you are approaching from.
Dave, likewise your points are well taken. But my problem with using dress as a method for classification is in some ways linked to the "FrakenKeris" example which you have shown. There are, of course, many good reasons why, for instance, a Javanese keris might end up in a Peninsula dress. Good cultural reasons. But these days we see more and more combos (many much more subtle and attractive than the one you show) that are merely some dealers way of making a keris more saleable with a nice fancy dress. I am sure that there are many examples on the market that we will never be able to determine for sure whether it was cross dressed to suit the local customs of an indigenious owner or to make it more attractive to a western buyer. So, for me, to use the manner of dress as a means of keris classification can be meaningless if the cultural history it implies is incorrect or nonexistent.
I do concede that the entire ensemble of blade and dress is rightfully referred to as "the keris". But also it is true that the blade itself is rightfully referred to as "the keris". However, a sheath and hilt, standing alone, without a blade, regardless of how beautiful and spirit-filled it may be would never be referred to as "the keris".

DAHenkel · 15th March 2005, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Your point on Americans of various origins -- you just made my point. What was the common link amongst them all -- "American"! So a Javanese keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Bugis keris dressed in Terengganu parts, and a Terengganu keris dressed in Terengganu parts are... [you can complete the sentence].

Terengganu Americans?

nechesh · 16th March 2005, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Terengganu Americans?

LOL!

Alam Shah · 16th March 2005, 01:20 AM

Capt Smash's piece is "Balinese American".

(Unique in its own class.)
At least its complete with a sheath and fittings.
In my opinion, Maduranese and Balinese pieces are much more varied than others.

Bill · 16th March 2005, 03:08 AM

Received the keris today & I'm quite happy with it. The holes have been helped along with a file. Likely done mid-20C with the dress as Dave has placed it. The dress is better than I expected, but nothing spectacular. There is conciderable loss to the blade & quite a bit of rust. Can this blade be South Sulawesi? Bought this blade because it struck me as simular craftsmanship of my "Moro" kris that I suspect is also from Sulawesi, can't say that I have changed my mind after putting them side by side. Quite surprised to find characters on the top of the ganga & specks of gold, coincidental with this current tread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=432 . Saddly, there is also conciderable loss to this area of the ganga as well as quite a bit of dirt & rust. No animals, just characters, the work is so tiny, I'm amazed that it could even be done. As it is now, nothing is distinguishable, & a good cleaning will remove the last specks of gold as well as likely continue the loss of metal. Would be very interesting to find out if it is either Java or Bugis script.

Alam Shah · 16th March 2005, 03:57 AM

Well Bill, first and foremost, congrats. I wondered where this piece went.

Why not take a few shots and let us see this piece in its current condition.
The eBay pics does not tell much about the piece. Do a close-up on the script, please.
We can start commenting again from the top...

Bill · 16th March 2005, 04:53 AM

I'll take some pics tommorrow, in the sunlight. Have to stop buying swords & get a deceint camera though.

rahman · 16th March 2005, 05:51 AM

As a rank beginner, let me stir the pot a bit more

Bill -- you have what looks like a very sturdy blade, a sempana (9 lunk) with Nguku Bima. There may have been rust but not heavy corrosion, I think, that would have caused the two holes. They may have been made deliberately.

I say this quire confidently because I have a similar blade, only with heavier corrosion but still sturdy enough with no holes.

I think the ganja is not original to the blade, judging from the gap between it and the blade and the sudden flaring at the end.

I'm not sure if you have a central fuller (ada-ada) or is that a pamor line. If it's pamor, it would be called Nerjang Landep, a line that ran off track before reaching the tip. The esoterics will say it's a keris that brings a lot of misunderstanding and strife (see, it's already happening in this thread

)

Again, those 2 holes may have a mystical function and I find it rare to find comboings with two holes, as most are really forging defects that cause a single crack or hole.

Regardless of its nationality

I think you may have a keris with some mystical properties/functions.

I too was attracted to this keris when it was offered on e-bay -- until I say the combong. Not my cup of tea.
The sampir is quite good, I think with good grain. A good cleaning and a good waxing should bring this baby up.

All the best

rahman · 16th March 2005, 05:53 AM

As a rank beginner, let me stir the pot a bit more

Bill -- you have what looks like a very sturdy blade, a sempana (9 luk) with Nguku Bima. There may have been rust but not heavy corrosion, I think, that would have caused the two holes. They may have been made deliberately.

I say this quire confidently because I have a similar blade, only with heavier corrosion but still sturdy enough with no holes.

I think the ganja is not original to the blade, judging from the gap between it and the blade and the sudden flaring at the aring.

I'm not sure if you have a central fuller (ada-ada) or is that a pamor line. If it's pamor, it would be called Nerjang Landep, a line that runs off track before reaching the tip. The esoterics will say it's a keris that brings a lot of misunderstanding and strife (see, it's already happening in this thread

)

Again, those 2 holes may have a mystical function and I find it rare to find comboings with two holes, as most are really forging defects that cause a single crack or hole.

Regardless of its nationality

I think you may have a keris with some mystical properties/functions.

I too was attracted to this keris when it was offered on e-bay -- until I saw the combong. Not my cup of tea.

The sampir is quite good with good grain. A good cleaning and a good waxing should bring this baby up.

All the best

rasdan · 16th March 2005, 06:02 AM

There is a possibility that the holes are purposely made. Theres a javaneese dapur with both sogokan pierced through. I dont remember the name however. In the case of talismanic values, i believe the one mentioned in Van Duuren's book is "Combong". This one, IMHO is not combong. Combong happens when the lamination of a vertical pamor is not good enough. ie low heat. When it happens to a mlumah pamor, its pengat waja if im not mistaken. Combong is popular only to limited audience of malay collectors. Most Javaneese collecters regard this as a defect and of course reflects on the skill of the empu. Finally, im not sure about the nerjang landep, the pamor seems to be ok to me. If theres any mistake in my understandings, please correct me.

Regards,
Rasdan

tom hyle · 16th March 2005, 10:42 AM

The holes were 100% certainly made on purpose. There is and has been no question of that. The question is were they there original, or are they an after-market feature, and if an after-market feature (testimony that this is traditional, and the newer filing in them almost "locks" the case for this), were they made in response to a hole worn through in a groove; in order to render it into an artistic/integrated/planned shape (and would someone ever just "up and do" this if there weren't a hole worn thru?).

My info is that real coombong are very deliberately made in the original forging process, and I have very occassionally seen such holes in blades (perhaps combong is technically only one type of such hole). I've been told that gaps that are from flaws in blades get passed off as coombongs, which is not the same as actually being them (though see below). Likewise I have seen gaps etched through in the bottoms of fullers claimed as coombongs, which they are not. This is the first time I have seen them filed out to "go in" with the dapur of the blade (so far as I know, though I have seen other pierced blades where, thinking back now, it's certainly possible), though I have certainly considered the concept.

Heavy corrosion has occured such as could cause such a hole; look again at the deep etched grooves in the blade; fullers are thin in the bottom to start with, and BTW I didn't say anything before, but the edges of this blade have likely been re-ground at some time or they would look ragged after the etches that have produced that surface (could be wrong, but in the photo the etch looks deep and probably repeated)

Consider that usual kris are not made of a single layered billet that could accidentally have a gap running all the way through. They are made in 3 layers, each made individually, and the outer 2 bearing the pamor. So if one is made in one billet (unusual) and has a gap all the way through (unusual) might it not be appropriate to do other than assume that the co-incidence of these twe unusual things is accidental/incidental "mere coincidence"; might not the coincidence itself, and repeatedly seen, while not proving connection and intent, suggest them? In other words, does not the fact that the blade is made in a single fibrous mass that can form a split rather than the usual 3 layers, or if it is 3 layers that are pierced through in a way that would not logically occur from a "cold shut" welding flaw, but would have to be cut deliberately, suggest that the gap is deliberate in such cases? I know I'm being unclear here, but it's all I've got at the moment.....somewhat disorganized thoughts.....

As we've all been passed down the warning that horimono (carvings on Japanese blades) can be a way to conceal/cut off a flaw, so we recieve the warning that a hole presented as a coombong can be an accidental or worn flaw, but we should keep in mind that these possibilities do not in any way suggest that there is no valid "real thing" nor devalue it; this is a point that is far too often lost; I definitely know that horimono get an unwarranted bad name from this basically collector's tale; this exaggeration of a warning of a possibility into a certainty of constant trickery (and I'm sure I've mentioned before that constant thoughts and expectations of trickery seem to be integral to American culture; perhaps this is implied by the combination of republicanism and capitalism; heck, perhaps it's just the humans, but that can of worms is an unneccessary diversion....). It's like this; there could be a mugger or a crazy dog behind the dumpster, so have your eye open, but still you gotta walk down the street......(Or if you're like me you gotta face down that crazy dog and climb up in that box and see what someone thought was trash....

.....)

I think the ganga is worn loose from repeated washings, and the gaps (note they are different in different photos) come from it laying loosely.

Now, to put this all in perspective; that k(e)ris everyone thinks is so laughably awful? OK, the oversheath is obviously from another sheath and doesn't quite fit; otherwise? No idea what y'all are on about

Bill · 16th March 2005, 04:55 PM

There are some things that are odd with this keris. As Tom pointed out, repeated washing should have left the edges uneven. The keris seems petite, just to thin. The ganja seems to be original, just bent. Where the mendak touches the ganja there is a perfect indention so it fits perfectly. The indention is the same as the height of the characters, too much of a coincidence. A likely senerio: old blade damaged by etching or rust or combination of both; heavy filing to remove damaged edges. The top of the ganja worked to add the characters; small amounts of gold added for effect or even gilding that fell off. Holes filed to cover up damage or to add to the "speciality" of the keris. The sampir fits well, so it must have been made for the blade after its "makeover". The groves are filled with rust and the ganja is too. I have it soaking in pinnapple juice, after I clean & oil it, I'll post some more pics. Even though I think the keris has been "doctored up", I still like it.

nechesh · 16th March 2005, 11:07 PM

Well, you know Bill, that's the thing about keris. They each have their own personalities and if you are drawn to one you can like it inspite of it's problems. Kinda like people i suppose.

As for the cemplong (combong) issue, i am pretty sure that true cemplong is done intentionally by the empu. It is NOT a forging defect. I believe that Rasdan's ideas on this term are a general misunderstanding. Firstly, i believe there are very few real cemplong keris to be found. This has only perpetuated this misunderstanding since many things that are not cemplong have come to be regarded as so. I don't think van Duuren's example is true cemplong either, which only adds to the confusion when it is being presented by an expert in the field. His example looks to me like it may be a forging flaw. Most of what passes for cemplong is merely the wearing through at the sogokan after years of acid washing. This, however, is not due to a forging flaw, just wear at the naturally thinest point in the keris. I believe that is what happened to Bill's keris and then someone argmented it to even it out and make it look intententional. I have looked at quite a lot of keris in the past few years and have only seen ONE true cemplong in that time. It is currently owned by one of our members, though i would be surprised if he posted photos of it. I would think that a true cemplong keris would be highly prized by a dukun or anyone with a keen interest in the mystical side of keris, including native Javanese.

10th March 2005, 07:53 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Bugis keris This poor guy has been bouncing around on ebay for some time. The dress looks receint, but the blade has appealed to me. Any comments, age? Attached Images Last edited by Bill; 10th March 2005 at 08:07 PM.

14th March 2005, 11:19 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmmm "The blade IS the sword" I consider this a hard and fast rule, as far as my personal analyses go. Now, I am not the most knowlegable here about the details of SE Asian culture, however, it seems to me to be particularly integral to the interactions of Oceanic East Asians with their swords (particularly k[e]ris and Nihon-to), from initial construction through simple maintanance and various re-dressings, including a single blade sometimes owning various dress for various occassions, that the sword is the blade and the dress is just that; dress, clothing, and any real man can tell you, the clothes do not make the man, and it's often considered unwise to think they do (as to judge a book by looking at its cover). Of course, with a sword the handle will influence its use, and the sheath will influence its protection, and I suppose it might even enjoy some jewellery, but all in all it remains the blade that truly is a sword. Last edited by tom hyle; 14th March 2005 at 11:40 AM.

15th March 2005, 02:37 PM	#14
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Guys, we're talking about keris here, not ethnicity or race or anything else. There are paralells sure but its still apples and oranges. Humans can be defined by others but they can also define themselves. A keris is an inanimate object. It cannot define itself any further than its features communicate to us meaning and significance. I would put to you that people in general assess the keris, as with most other examples including these cited by BluErf, based on the sum total off its parts. A Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts is a Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts. Why limit ourselves to such a simplistic notion that, because the blade is Javanese, ergo the keris is Javanese? Certainly we can grasp the complexities of a Javanese keris, dressed in Terengganu parts? I would further argue that people will only define things based on what they know about them. In that sense my argument about walking into the Kraton was a bit unfair. After all they could not reasonably be expected to recognize the blade as being Javanese when they could not see it. And once they were assayed of the facts they would certainly be most willing to accept that the keris was in fact a Javanese blade dressed in Terengganu parts. Of course they would have probably have gotten bored and gone for coffee half-way through the explanation but hey that's real world and we're speculatin' here. Also, Tom I'm afraid I don't quite buy your arugement about permanent (or impermanent construction). Its fair to say that in almost every case, a Javanese keris that has been dressed in Malay dress has been permanently modified - precisely because the pesi of a Javanese blade would almost certainly have to be shortened to fit a Malay hilt. Sure, you could re-dress the blade back in Javanese dress but I would also suggest that most Javanese would be appalled upon removing the hilt and discovering that the blade had been permanently disfigured. I leave you all will a fun image of the excesses of parts sharing...let it be a warning to us all Attached Images

15th March 2005, 03:00 PM	#15
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Yikes...what an ugly combination. The sheath is the most inappropriate combination. The pendok, instead of complimenting the sheath, spoils it. Last edited by Alam Shah; 16th March 2005 at 01:23 AM.

15th March 2005, 04:11 PM	#17
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	keris in American dress You gentlemen might be amused by this keris; Blade bought from Capt. Smash on ebay, handle of African Pink Ivory wood by my friend in Bali, and sheath of rosewood trimmed with pink ivory and ebony by... yours truly! (And by the way... it's a perfect fit, and doesn't rattle in the sheath, except to warn me of approaching danger!) Attached Images

10th March 2005, 10:30 PM	#2
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

14th March 2005, 08:14 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The iron makes the keris blade, but the keris is a 'whole package' thing. The dress is as important as the blade. Just like people. While Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are of extremely similar genetic makeup, its the 'cultural presentation' that makes one Chinese, Japanese or Korean. In fact, some Chinese have even crossed over to become Malay in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). They have a term for it "masuk Melayu". The same applies to Arabs and Indians who have, over the centuries, become integrated into the Malay identity and call themselves Malays. Similarly, a keris blade (tilam upih for example) dressed in a Riau keris would be considered a Riau keris whereas the same blade dressed in a ladrangan Solo would be a Solonese keris. The legendary Malay hero Hang Tuah went to Java in search of a keris. He found one -- Taming Sari -- and brought it back to Peninsula Malaysia. He dressed it in local sheath/handle styles as you can imagine he would not be caught dead wearing it with a Javanese ladrangan sheath in the Malay world. What is Taming Sari then? A Malay keris, as my fellow Malay friends would say.

14th March 2005, 11:32 AM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense. Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

14th March 2005, 11:44 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

14th March 2005, 12:09 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I'm not playing down the importance of the blade, or saying that the blade is not (part of) the keris. And I'm also not disrespecting the skills of the smith/empu who made the blade. Don't go to the other extreme. Yes, the "blade is the sword", but what kind of sword? Take me for example. I'm ethnically Chinese. Both my grandfathers came from China. But I'm not going to dress like a China Chinese and tell people that I am a Chinese National. Genetically, I'm the exactly the same as the people from China, much like Taming Sari was forged by a Javanese empu. But I'll tell you my identity is a Singaporean of Chinese descent, here in Southeast Asia, part of the Malay world. So what happens to a keris that makes its way from Java to Peninsula Malaysia? Yes, the blade was made by a Javanese smith. But now that it has made its way to the Malay world, and dressed as such, is it still a Javanese keris? Would any Americans of German descent say that they are Germans? I think they call themselves Americans. Take another example. The firanggi swords used by Indians. Blade may be European, but I'm sure you won't call it a European sabre/sword in its present dress. What about Ethiopian shotels?

14th March 2005, 02:13 PM	#9
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows. Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

15th March 2005, 02:37 AM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks

15th March 2005, 10:07 PM	#18
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes Kai Wee, i own "Spirit of Wood". Of course there is spirit and power in the wood. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "the way you talk about sheaths and handles almost suggests that a well-made sheath and handle can be gotten easily. I hope you appreciate the pains and efforts that the miranggi/wood carver puts into acquiring the wood, curing it, selecting the best piece, and of course, actually carving it into a beautiful piece of artwork." I don't believe there is anything that i said that suggests i think that. Sheaths can be great works of art and beauty on to themselves. My ONLY point was that the iron is the MOST important part. Now it has been brought to my attention, and rightfully so, i believe, that we are in a sense both right, but coming from different perspectives. Certainly, to the collector a sheath can be as highly prized as the blade itself, perhaps more so in some cases. But from the cultural perspective, the blade will always be the most highly prized part. I guess it all depends on which side of the mountain you are approaching from. Dave, likewise your points are well taken. But my problem with using dress as a method for classification is in some ways linked to the "FrakenKeris" example which you have shown. There are, of course, many good reasons why, for instance, a Javanese keris might end up in a Peninsula dress. Good cultural reasons. But these days we see more and more combos (many much more subtle and attractive than the one you show) that are merely some dealers way of making a keris more saleable with a nice fancy dress. I am sure that there are many examples on the market that we will never be able to determine for sure whether it was cross dressed to suit the local customs of an indigenious owner or to make it more attractive to a western buyer. So, for me, to use the manner of dress as a means of keris classification can be meaningless if the cultural history it implies is incorrect or nonexistent. I do concede that the entire ensemble of blade and dress is rightfully referred to as "the keris". But also it is true that the blade itself is rightfully referred to as "the keris". However, a sheath and hilt, standing alone, without a blade, regardless of how beautiful and spirit-filled it may be would never be referred to as "the keris".

16th March 2005, 01:20 AM	#21
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Capt Smash's piece is "Balinese American". (Unique in its own class.) At least its complete with a sheath and fittings. In my opinion, Maduranese and Balinese pieces are much more varied than others.

16th March 2005, 03:08 AM	#22
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Received the keris today & I'm quite happy with it. The holes have been helped along with a file. Likely done mid-20C with the dress as Dave has placed it. The dress is better than I expected, but nothing spectacular. There is conciderable loss to the blade & quite a bit of rust. Can this blade be South Sulawesi? Bought this blade because it struck me as simular craftsmanship of my "Moro" kris that I suspect is also from Sulawesi, can't say that I have changed my mind after putting them side by side. Quite surprised to find characters on the top of the ganga & specks of gold, coincidental with this current tread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=432 . Saddly, there is also conciderable loss to this area of the ganga as well as quite a bit of dirt & rust. No animals, just characters, the work is so tiny, I'm amazed that it could even be done. As it is now, nothing is distinguishable, & a good cleaning will remove the last specks of gold as well as likely continue the loss of metal. Would be very interesting to find out if it is either Java or Bugis script.

16th March 2005, 03:57 AM	#23
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Well Bill, first and foremost, congrats. I wondered where this piece went. Why not take a few shots and let us see this piece in its current condition. The eBay pics does not tell much about the piece. Do a close-up on the script, please. We can start commenting again from the top... Last edited by Alam Shah; 16th March 2005 at 06:22 AM. Reason: grammar...

16th March 2005, 04:53 AM	#24
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I'll take some pics tommorrow, in the sunlight. Have to stop buying swords & get a deceint camera though.

16th March 2005, 05:51 AM	#25
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	As a rank beginner, let me stir the pot a bit more Bill -- you have what looks like a very sturdy blade, a sempana (9 lunk) with Nguku Bima. There may have been rust but not heavy corrosion, I think, that would have caused the two holes. They may have been made deliberately. I say this quire confidently because I have a similar blade, only with heavier corrosion but still sturdy enough with no holes. I think the ganja is not original to the blade, judging from the gap between it and the blade and the sudden flaring at the end. I'm not sure if you have a central fuller (ada-ada) or is that a pamor line. If it's pamor, it would be called Nerjang Landep, a line that ran off track before reaching the tip. The esoterics will say it's a keris that brings a lot of misunderstanding and strife (see, it's already happening in this thread ) Again, those 2 holes may have a mystical function and I find it rare to find comboings with two holes, as most are really forging defects that cause a single crack or hole. Regardless of its nationality I think you may have a keris with some mystical properties/functions. I too was attracted to this keris when it was offered on e-bay -- until I say the combong. Not my cup of tea. The sampir is quite good, I think with good grain. A good cleaning and a good waxing should bring this baby up. All the best

16th March 2005, 05:53 AM	#26
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	As a rank beginner, let me stir the pot a bit more Bill -- you have what looks like a very sturdy blade, a sempana (9 luk) with Nguku Bima. There may have been rust but not heavy corrosion, I think, that would have caused the two holes. They may have been made deliberately. I say this quire confidently because I have a similar blade, only with heavier corrosion but still sturdy enough with no holes. I think the ganja is not original to the blade, judging from the gap between it and the blade and the sudden flaring at the aring. I'm not sure if you have a central fuller (ada-ada) or is that a pamor line. If it's pamor, it would be called Nerjang Landep, a line that runs off track before reaching the tip. The esoterics will say it's a keris that brings a lot of misunderstanding and strife (see, it's already happening in this thread ) Again, those 2 holes may have a mystical function and I find it rare to find comboings with two holes, as most are really forging defects that cause a single crack or hole. Regardless of its nationality I think you may have a keris with some mystical properties/functions. I too was attracted to this keris when it was offered on e-bay -- until I saw the combong. Not my cup of tea. The sampir is quite good with good grain. A good cleaning and a good waxing should bring this baby up. All the best

16th March 2005, 06:02 AM	#27
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	There is a possibility that the holes are purposely made. Theres a javaneese dapur with both sogokan pierced through. I dont remember the name however. In the case of talismanic values, i believe the one mentioned in Van Duuren's book is "Combong". This one, IMHO is not combong. Combong happens when the lamination of a vertical pamor is not good enough. ie low heat. When it happens to a mlumah pamor, its pengat waja if im not mistaken. Combong is popular only to limited audience of malay collectors. Most Javaneese collecters regard this as a defect and of course reflects on the skill of the empu. Finally, im not sure about the nerjang landep, the pamor seems to be ok to me. If theres any mistake in my understandings, please correct me. Regards, Rasdan Last edited by rasdan; 16th March 2005 at 06:17 AM.

16th March 2005, 10:42 AM	#28
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The holes were 100% certainly made on purpose. There is and has been no question of that. The question is were they there original, or are they an after-market feature, and if an after-market feature (testimony that this is traditional, and the newer filing in them almost "locks" the case for this), were they made in response to a hole worn through in a groove; in order to render it into an artistic/integrated/planned shape (and would someone ever just "up and do" this if there weren't a hole worn thru?). My info is that real coombong are very deliberately made in the original forging process, and I have very occassionally seen such holes in blades (perhaps combong is technically only one type of such hole). I've been told that gaps that are from flaws in blades get passed off as coombongs, which is not the same as actually being them (though see below). Likewise I have seen gaps etched through in the bottoms of fullers claimed as coombongs, which they are not. This is the first time I have seen them filed out to "go in" with the dapur of the blade (so far as I know, though I have seen other pierced blades where, thinking back now, it's certainly possible), though I have certainly considered the concept. Heavy corrosion has occured such as could cause such a hole; look again at the deep etched grooves in the blade; fullers are thin in the bottom to start with, and BTW I didn't say anything before, but the edges of this blade have likely been re-ground at some time or they would look ragged after the etches that have produced that surface (could be wrong, but in the photo the etch looks deep and probably repeated) Consider that usual kris are not made of a single layered billet that could accidentally have a gap running all the way through. They are made in 3 layers, each made individually, and the outer 2 bearing the pamor. So if one is made in one billet (unusual) and has a gap all the way through (unusual) might it not be appropriate to do other than assume that the co-incidence of these twe unusual things is accidental/incidental "mere coincidence"; might not the coincidence itself, and repeatedly seen, while not proving connection and intent, suggest them? In other words, does not the fact that the blade is made in a single fibrous mass that can form a split rather than the usual 3 layers, or if it is 3 layers that are pierced through in a way that would not logically occur from a "cold shut" welding flaw, but would have to be cut deliberately, suggest that the gap is deliberate in such cases? I know I'm being unclear here, but it's all I've got at the moment.....somewhat disorganized thoughts..... As we've all been passed down the warning that horimono (carvings on Japanese blades) can be a way to conceal/cut off a flaw, so we recieve the warning that a hole presented as a coombong can be an accidental or worn flaw, but we should keep in mind that these possibilities do not in any way suggest that there is no valid "real thing" nor devalue it; this is a point that is far too often lost; I definitely know that horimono get an unwarranted bad name from this basically collector's tale; this exaggeration of a warning of a possibility into a certainty of constant trickery (and I'm sure I've mentioned before that constant thoughts and expectations of trickery seem to be integral to American culture; perhaps this is implied by the combination of republicanism and capitalism; heck, perhaps it's just the humans, but that can of worms is an unneccessary diversion....). It's like this; there could be a mugger or a crazy dog behind the dumpster, so have your eye open, but still you gotta walk down the street......(Or if you're like me you gotta face down that crazy dog and climb up in that box and see what someone thought was trash.... .....) I think the ganga is worn loose from repeated washings, and the gaps (note they are different in different photos) come from it laying loosely. Now, to put this all in perspective; that k(e)ris everyone thinks is so laughably awful? OK, the oversheath is obviously from another sheath and doesn't quite fit; otherwise? No idea what y'all are on about

16th March 2005, 04:55 PM	#29
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	There are some things that are odd with this keris. As Tom pointed out, repeated washing should have left the edges uneven. The keris seems petite, just to thin. The ganja seems to be original, just bent. Where the mendak touches the ganja there is a perfect indention so it fits perfectly. The indention is the same as the height of the characters, too much of a coincidence. A likely senerio: old blade damaged by etching or rust or combination of both; heavy filing to remove damaged edges. The top of the ganja worked to add the characters; small amounts of gold added for effect or even gilding that fell off. Holes filed to cover up damage or to add to the "speciality" of the keris. The sampir fits well, so it must have been made for the blade after its "makeover". The groves are filled with rust and the ganja is too. I have it soaking in pinnapple juice, after I clean & oil it, I'll post some more pics. Even though I think the keris has been "doctored up", I still like it.

16th March 2005, 11:07 PM	#30
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Well, you know Bill, that's the thing about keris. They each have their own personalities and if you are drawn to one you can like it inspite of it's problems. Kinda like people i suppose. As for the cemplong (combong) issue, i am pretty sure that true cemplong is done intentionally by the empu. It is NOT a forging defect. I believe that Rasdan's ideas on this term are a general misunderstanding. Firstly, i believe there are very few real cemplong keris to be found. This has only perpetuated this misunderstanding since many things that are not cemplong have come to be regarded as so. I don't think van Duuren's example is true cemplong either, which only adds to the confusion when it is being presented by an expert in the field. His example looks to me like it may be a forging flaw. Most of what passes for cemplong is merely the wearing through at the sogokan after years of acid washing. This, however, is not due to a forging flaw, just wear at the naturally thinest point in the keris. I believe that is what happened to Bill's keris and then someone argmented it to even it out and make it look intententional. I have looked at quite a lot of keris in the past few years and have only seen ONE true cemplong in that time. It is currently owned by one of our members, though i would be surprised if he posted photos of it. I would think that a true cemplong keris would be highly prized by a dukun or anyone with a keen interest in the mystical side of keris, including native Javanese.