Arms and Numismatics

olikara · 8th August 2007, 05:51 PM

Numismatics being my primary hobby, I am very excited when I come across weapons depicted on classical coins.

India has always had a rich numismatic tradition and it is on Indian coins that you can perhaps see the world's largest variety of pictoral representations like animals, birds, trees, and in many cases edged weapons too. The Hindu kingdoms in India were at the forefront of making such beautiful coins as the Mohameddan kingdoms were religiously prohibited from depicting images on their coins and had to make do with mind blowing calligraphy instead.

The most common of edged weapon representations on Indian classical coinage are the Vajra, Trishul and the Ankush.

In Hindu mythology vajra is a powerful weapon having the combined features of sword, mace, and spear. Vajra also means thunderbolt and holds a special place ion Buddhist mystical tradition as well. I have depicted a Vajra in the first attachment.

The Trishul is the Trident and has always been a favorite Indian religious symbol as well as weapon. The 2nd attachment shows a 17th century Maratha coin depicting the Trishul on it's obverse.

And lastly we have the Ankush , which though edged may not be a weapon in the strictest sense. The Ankush is an elephant prod and is in the form of a long rod held in the elephant handler's hand with a pointed hook at one end. The hook is used to prod the delicate portion behind the elephant's ear and thus keep the animal in control. I have read that a longer version of such a weapon was used by the Mongols in battle to unseat riders from their horses. The 3rd attachment has a representation of the Ankush on another Maratha coin. Observe it at the 9 'O' clock position.

Tipu Sultan of Mysore's father Haidar Ali depicted the battle axe on his smaller copper coins.

I also came across another fascinating piece, and this one a coin belonging to the Vijaynagar Empire in South India under the Great Krishnadeva Raya.(1509-1530 A.D.). I have it attached as the last picture.

What is interesting about this piece is the depiction of the edged weapon here. Mitchiner in his coin catalog(1998:767) says that it is a dagger. However I feel that it is a sword as it has all the attributes of the medieval S. Indian Hindu sword which had upward inclined quatrefoil guards with a large composite pommel, often with a wooden cushion. Does anyone else on the forum agree that the picture on the coin looks more like a sword rather than a dagger. I welcome your comments here.

I apologise to the forum as well as the moderators if this topic is a way off the general discussions here. But then I feel one can always learn more about contemporary weapons and their forms from their representations on coinage.

Jim McDougall · 8th August 2007, 06:57 PM

Thank you so much Olikara for posting this outstanding, detailed, and most certainly pertinant information that indeed does apply a great deal in the study of weapons! It really is great to see you posting again, recalling the fascinating Tipu Sultan hilt you posted a short time ago.

In the study of weapons, nusimatics is often key in identification processes, not only in terms of the representations seen in the iconography, but in some cases in symbolism and marking comparison. Since coins are in many cases of course dated either numerically or by the regalia or figures represented, this can help often chronologically in identifying weapons. Naturally a degree of caution applies, however using this factor will often present reasonable benchmarks.

The information you have provided is most helpful in our study of the weapons of India, particularly those of the Hindu culture, which have at last become somewhat more understandable thanks to the outstanding work of Dr. Robert Elgood in his "Hindu Arms and Ritual". He has made it clear that the study of these weapons requires the understanding of the culture, religion, and symbolism inbued in them, and keenly corroborates exactly what you have so well placed here.

Outstanding post!!! Thank you so much

All very best regards,
Jim

rand · 8th August 2007, 07:14 PM

Hi Olikara,

A pleasure to read your post about coins. This is one area underused so far in the study of arms, have been comparing Islamic coins to get inferences on datable calligraphy examples to add another piece to the puzzle in trying to determine time periods.

The weapon in the coin appears to have the proportions of a dagger. With another breath I imagine if a coin maker made the right proportions to display a sword it would three dimensionally be shallow and wear quickly.

Thanks for making your comparisons, insightful...

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 8th August 2007, 08:28 PM

Hi Olikara,

It is a very interesting thing you have started, showing the old Indian coins – thank you. The pictures from the coins give a time, when the weapons were used, although they, in some cases, can be difficult to recognise, and in some cases they also shows weapon types not usually recognised as being used in that area – very interesting.

If you have more coins, please show them

.

Jens

olikara · 9th August 2007, 04:10 AM

Jim, Thank you for the encouraging comments.

Rand, Yes the icon does look like a dagger when looked from a proportional perspective. However, it is the hilt construction that leaves me in doubt.

Jens, here are snaps of 2 more coins with weapons depicted on them. Both are from Mysore and from Haidar Ali's period (1722-1782 A.D.).

First is a Gold Mohur (often called Pagoda) depicting the Hindu Gods Shiva and his consort Parvati. Haidar though Muslim was very liberal when it came to depicting Hindu symbols on his coins. Observe Shiva holding a Trident (Trishul) in his hand (9 'O' Clock Position). The coin weighs 3.4 grams.

Again, there is a copper coin where Haidar depicts a battle axe on one side. Hope you find these coins interesting.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2007, 01:38 PM

Interesting coins you are showing, although it took me some time before i could see what was on the gold coin. The Hindu numerals used on coins and elsewhere can look quite differently according to the dialect spoken at the place, but does the numerals also give an indication of the time when they were used?

On a tulwar, I have, there is a square mark which I can’t figure out, can you?

spiral · 9th August 2007, 05:01 PM

Great thread, on the same & similar theme heres some old Nepali coins featuring Khanda, trident & of course kukri.

& a few {more recent.]stamps as well.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 9th August 2007, 07:14 PM

Hello Olikara,
As you can see your post on coins is indeed very well placed, and it was very kind of you to acknowledge my comments. On the coins you posted, the one with the battle axe......it has been my impression that these crescent head axes had primarily ceremonial or parade weapon application and were of course symbols of authority . This would seem to be the case with the axe shown on a coin, the one shown corresponding to 18th century examples considered Rajput, often carrying Hindu decorative motif.

It has been suggested it seems that the crescent shape may have associations with the moon, and I have wondered if that symbolism may actually be considered valid in the case of the shape of this form of axe head. My curiosity of course doubles in the case of double crescent axe heads !

Spiral, great coins, and stamps you have added! While the stamps are of course a modern concept, these are very nice examples! Its most interesting to see weapons posted on stamps with all the P.C. paranoia of today! Can you imagine any kind of a weapon being shown on a stamp in the west?

Having said that, it comes to mind that the Roman fasces, which often appears of course in symbolism on coins, and many other key symbolic elements, was in fact a ceremonial axe attached to a bundle of reeds, and represented authority as well as political freedom.

Although most of what we are discussing here concerns the appearance of the images of weapon forms in the motif on coins, it is important to note that other motif from coins is often key in identifying markings on weapons. In one instance on an Afghan sword of latter 19th century carried a stamped arsenal cartouche which was the image of the mosque at Mazir i Sharif , and was identical to the same image found on coins minted in that period. In the weapons of regulation military, typically in the last few centuries, the royal cyphers, shapes of crowns and varied regalia etc. that are found on minted coins often assist in dating and identifying period of the weapon.

In an interesting turnabout, in the case of many ethnographic weapons, it is not unusual to see coins attached to the weapons. For example in Arabia coins are sometimes imbedded into repousse silver motif in the hilt of janbiyya. In Ethiopia there are often coins attached to the pommels of shotel and in associated regions similar practice occurs. In the latter 19th century it seems that pesos were sometimes nailed to the pommel of sabres carried by the Rurales (much in the same manner as seen on Ethiopian shotels).

This really has opened a fascinating perspective on the association between the study of antique weapons and nusimatics, and I really look forward to other examples!!

Thank you very much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

8th August 2007, 05:51 PM	#1
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Arms and Numismatics Numismatics being my primary hobby, I am very excited when I come across weapons depicted on classical coins. India has always had a rich numismatic tradition and it is on Indian coins that you can perhaps see the world's largest variety of pictoral representations like animals, birds, trees, and in many cases edged weapons too. The Hindu kingdoms in India were at the forefront of making such beautiful coins as the Mohameddan kingdoms were religiously prohibited from depicting images on their coins and had to make do with mind blowing calligraphy instead. The most common of edged weapon representations on Indian classical coinage are the Vajra, Trishul and the Ankush. In Hindu mythology vajra is a powerful weapon having the combined features of sword, mace, and spear. Vajra also means thunderbolt and holds a special place ion Buddhist mystical tradition as well. I have depicted a Vajra in the first attachment. The Trishul is the Trident and has always been a favorite Indian religious symbol as well as weapon. The 2nd attachment shows a 17th century Maratha coin depicting the Trishul on it's obverse. And lastly we have the Ankush , which though edged may not be a weapon in the strictest sense. The Ankush is an elephant prod and is in the form of a long rod held in the elephant handler's hand with a pointed hook at one end. The hook is used to prod the delicate portion behind the elephant's ear and thus keep the animal in control. I have read that a longer version of such a weapon was used by the Mongols in battle to unseat riders from their horses. The 3rd attachment has a representation of the Ankush on another Maratha coin. Observe it at the 9 'O' clock position. Tipu Sultan of Mysore's father Haidar Ali depicted the battle axe on his smaller copper coins. I also came across another fascinating piece, and this one a coin belonging to the Vijaynagar Empire in South India under the Great Krishnadeva Raya.(1509-1530 A.D.). I have it attached as the last picture. What is interesting about this piece is the depiction of the edged weapon here. Mitchiner in his coin catalog(1998:767) says that it is a dagger. However I feel that it is a sword as it has all the attributes of the medieval S. Indian Hindu sword which had upward inclined quatrefoil guards with a large composite pommel, often with a wooden cushion. Does anyone else on the forum agree that the picture on the coin looks more like a sword rather than a dagger. I welcome your comments here. I apologise to the forum as well as the moderators if this topic is a way off the general discussions here. But then I feel one can always learn more about contemporary weapons and their forms from their representations on coinage. Attached Images Last edited by olikara; 8th August 2007 at 06:01 PM.

8th August 2007, 07:14 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Dagger? Sword? on the coin...... Hi Olikara, A pleasure to read your post about coins. This is one area underused so far in the study of arms, have been comparing Islamic coins to get inferences on datable calligraphy examples to add another piece to the puzzle in trying to determine time periods. The weapon in the coin appears to have the proportions of a dagger. With another breath I imagine if a coin maker made the right proportions to display a sword it would three dimensionally be shallow and wear quickly. Thanks for making your comparisons, insightful... rand

8th August 2007, 08:28 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Olikara, It is a very interesting thing you have started, showing the old Indian coins – thank you. The pictures from the coins give a time, when the weapons were used, although they, in some cases, can be difficult to recognise, and in some cases they also shows weapon types not usually recognised as being used in that area – very interesting. If you have more coins, please show them. Jens

9th August 2007, 04:10 AM	#5
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 100	Mysore Coins - Trident and Battle Axe Jim, Thank you for the encouraging comments. Rand, Yes the icon does look like a dagger when looked from a proportional perspective. However, it is the hilt construction that leaves me in doubt. Jens, here are snaps of 2 more coins with weapons depicted on them. Both are from Mysore and from Haidar Ali's period (1722-1782 A.D.). First is a Gold Mohur (often called Pagoda) depicting the Hindu Gods Shiva and his consort Parvati. Haidar though Muslim was very liberal when it came to depicting Hindu symbols on his coins. Observe Shiva holding a Trident (Trishul) in his hand (9 'O' Clock Position). The coin weighs 3.4 grams. Again, there is a copper coin where Haidar depicts a battle axe on one side. Hope you find these coins interesting. Attached Images

9th August 2007, 01:38 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting coins you are showing, although it took me some time before i could see what was on the gold coin. The Hindu numerals used on coins and elsewhere can look quite differently according to the dialect spoken at the place, but does the numerals also give an indication of the time when they were used? On a tulwar, I have, there is a square mark which I can’t figure out, can you? Attached Images

8th August 2007, 06:57 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Thank you so much Olikara for posting this outstanding, detailed, and most certainly pertinant information that indeed does apply a great deal in the study of weapons! It really is great to see you posting again, recalling the fascinating Tipu Sultan hilt you posted a short time ago. In the study of weapons, nusimatics is often key in identification processes, not only in terms of the representations seen in the iconography, but in some cases in symbolism and marking comparison. Since coins are in many cases of course dated either numerically or by the regalia or figures represented, this can help often chronologically in identifying weapons. Naturally a degree of caution applies, however using this factor will often present reasonable benchmarks. The information you have provided is most helpful in our study of the weapons of India, particularly those of the Hindu culture, which have at last become somewhat more understandable thanks to the outstanding work of Dr. Robert Elgood in his "Hindu Arms and Ritual". He has made it clear that the study of these weapons requires the understanding of the culture, religion, and symbolism inbued in them, and keenly corroborates exactly what you have so well placed here. Outstanding post!!! Thank you so much All very best regards, Jim

9th August 2007, 05:01 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great thread, on the same & similar theme heres some old Nepali coins featuring Khanda, trident & of course kukri. & a few {more recent.]stamps as well. Spiral

9th August 2007, 07:14 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hello Olikara, As you can see your post on coins is indeed very well placed, and it was very kind of you to acknowledge my comments. On the coins you posted, the one with the battle axe......it has been my impression that these crescent head axes had primarily ceremonial or parade weapon application and were of course symbols of authority . This would seem to be the case with the axe shown on a coin, the one shown corresponding to 18th century examples considered Rajput, often carrying Hindu decorative motif. It has been suggested it seems that the crescent shape may have associations with the moon, and I have wondered if that symbolism may actually be considered valid in the case of the shape of this form of axe head. My curiosity of course doubles in the case of double crescent axe heads ! Spiral, great coins, and stamps you have added! While the stamps are of course a modern concept, these are very nice examples! Its most interesting to see weapons posted on stamps with all the P.C. paranoia of today! Can you imagine any kind of a weapon being shown on a stamp in the west? Having said that, it comes to mind that the Roman fasces, which often appears of course in symbolism on coins, and many other key symbolic elements, was in fact a ceremonial axe attached to a bundle of reeds, and represented authority as well as political freedom. Although most of what we are discussing here concerns the appearance of the images of weapon forms in the motif on coins, it is important to note that other motif from coins is often key in identifying markings on weapons. In one instance on an Afghan sword of latter 19th century carried a stamped arsenal cartouche which was the image of the mosque at Mazir i Sharif , and was identical to the same image found on coins minted in that period. In the weapons of regulation military, typically in the last few centuries, the royal cyphers, shapes of crowns and varied regalia etc. that are found on minted coins often assist in dating and identifying period of the weapon. In an interesting turnabout, in the case of many ethnographic weapons, it is not unusual to see coins attached to the weapons. For example in Arabia coins are sometimes imbedded into repousse silver motif in the hilt of janbiyya. In Ethiopia there are often coins attached to the pommels of shotel and in associated regions similar practice occurs. In the latter 19th century it seems that pesos were sometimes nailed to the pommel of sabres carried by the Rurales (much in the same manner as seen on Ethiopian shotels). This really has opened a fascinating perspective on the association between the study of antique weapons and nusimatics, and I really look forward to other examples!! Thank you very much guys! All best regards, Jim