Non ethno sword with strange inscription

[eftihis]

Since i took out of the closet all the swords with inscriptions, please permit me to show you this one also.
It is of heavy and good construction, has a good feeling at hand, but has no edge! It is not sharp at all, and although there are nicks on the "blade" it seems that has been a training weapon, or maybe a ceremonial piece?
The sword has some age, and the most puzzling are the inscriptions it has on both sides. They are in an unknown to me language, i have no clue if it is an oriental script or some sort of old european style script.One the one side of the blade there is an eye (reminds me of something masonic) and on the other side the design of a medieval sword.
Any clues?

[Rivkin]

For what such ignorant answer is worth:

It does not seem to be Mkhedruli, but I vaguely remember books on alchemistry filled with similar "letters".

[Mark]

Dunno. I tried zodiac, runes, alchemical and Kabbalah symbology. Not clear match. The closest resemblance is to zodiacal symbols (which are essentially alchemical), but that is only with two or three of those on the blade. They are not Masonic as far as I know. The eye looks more Egyptian/Eye of Ra than the All-Seeing Eye of Freemasonry, which usually is depicted within overlapped square and compass, and with rays eminating from it.

Very mysterious. Any idea of the country of origin?

[fearn]

That looks like upside-down Theban script to me.

Theban is used by wiccans on their tools and things, so I'd say that you got a ceremonial blade of some sort. I have no idea of where the script came from originally, although it probably came from some ceremonial magician or alchemist

You can search for it on the web, but here's the translation sheet I got off the web.

I tried translating it from the script, but I think it'd be easier on the blade itself, rightside up. I think the first frame says something like "Ace of Swords"

My guess is that someone got an old sword, and reinscribed it for ceremonial use sometime in the last 50 years.

Probably explains why it feels so good in your hand, too.

Fearn

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is a link to Theban and other alphabets
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/theban.htm

Can you see if the writing and the eye are made with an electric tool, to me the curves seems as if they are.

Jens

[Naga Basuki]

Looks like the "Angelic" writing of Dr. John Dee.

[fearn]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure it's not Dee's Enochian/Angelic script.

That can be found here

[Mark]

I think you nailed it, fearn. I flipped the pictures and followed the key that you gave. One side reads "Ace of Swords" (with 2 U's standing for W), and the other reads "[Sw]ord of Swift Winds" (I can't make out the first two letters).

The Ace of Swords is a card in the Tarot deck (my avatar is the Tarot Page of Swords, BTW). The Sword of Swift Winds just sounds like someone's idea of a cool name. If the sword is genuine, its too bad that someone defaced it like that. Maybe it can be polished out.

[fearn]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for doing the hard work! Looking at it, I think it's actually "Lord of Swift Winds" (that first letter looks more like an L). The sword is the symbol of the element of air, so that makes sense.

Now we can have the real argument

--the blade has been dulled and engraved. Obviously this detracts from its value as a "pure example of an antique type" (however you parse that). OTOH, this is part of its history. To what degree is it worth erasing the history of a weapon to restore it to an assumed "ancestral" condition?

Personally, I think it would be kind of cool to have a known ritual sword, but tastes definitely differ.

So--comments? What makes this more genuine? Getting rid of the engraving and sharpening it, or leave it the way it is?

Fearn

[tom hyle]

The engraving looks fairly nicely done (a little crude), and I don't think I understand why anyone would have a problem with it. After market engraving and decoration of blades is quite traditional.
The blade does look old, and it also may have always been a practice sword; sharpening it might be more a conversion than a restoration, but don't let that stop you
The hand guard does not look old. It looks to have been arc/torch-welded up from thickish sheet steel cutouts, and some bar for the annoes.

[Rather]

The engraving looks quite newto me, most likely done with one of these little engraving machines, normally used for drinking glass.
Maybe someone wanted to use the sword for one of these role play games. The dulling of the blade would also fit to this theory.
What to do with it? Difficult to say. Personally, I would try to polish it off, or at least try to stain the engraving to make it look older and more like the rest of the blade.

[fearn]

Yep, I was thinking Dremmel engraving tool when I saw that too.

Given the most active thread at the moment, perhaps you'd like to check the blade to see if it's magnetized, Eftihis?

Fearn

[tom hyle]

The edges look rounded and of the same finish as the other blade surfaces; why are we thinking they have been blunted? Perhaps they were never sharpened (common with old European military swords, which this could well be a blade from), or possibly they were originally rebated for practice use. Without handling the sword I can't tell. There's a strange looking area in the close-up of the hilt where the blade goes in; it could concievably be a place where blade outside the hilt was narrowed, leaving a wider part visible in the guard hole, but A/ There's a definite line dividing whatever the light area is from the blade B/ doesn't it seem likely that if after-market rebating was done it was done at the time of the hilting? So why do it after? Inexperieced workmanship? That could also grind so close to the guard and not mark it? and C/ If so, what's holding the guard on? (though I've seen European bayonets with the very feature I just described; tang down thru hole to the very edge of the air is wider than blade; originally made that way; why I don't know, and the guard held on by rivets)
I'm still really puzzled by the hostility toward the very likely sincere religious inscription. I'm not nuts about electric engraving, but it's interesting to see from a bunch that usually isn't that hot on re-doing/undoing.....This may not be my favourite engraving, but let me be very clear: it is NOT damage.

[fearn]

Hi Tom,

Don't look at me for the bias. I personally think that it's a genuine Wiccan athame--a sword, for use in larger rituals, but a ritual blade nonetheless. Basically, it's in the same category as African "dance" swords and other such implements. It's not a weapon, any more than a cross or a chalice is.

Were it made for role-playing, I'd expect runes or Tolkeinian elvish script on the blade, rather than theban script.

There's probably an interesting story about how that blade ended up on Crete, in Eftihis' collection. If he's uncomfortable with it, I'll happily pay the postage to take it off his hands. I won't have much trouble finding a wiccan priest (or priestess) who would be happy to give it a home.

Fearn

[nechesh]

Have to say i'm right with fearn on this one, though i would tend to think the inscriber of this sword was more Ceremonial than Wiccan. Many Wiccan tend towards fire as the elemental attribution for the sword. Ceremonalists from lodges like the Golden Dawn or the OTO would certainly link the sword to air. Also, as Mark pointed out, the eye does have a distinctly Egyptian flavor. Egyptian symbolism is far more likely to be used by Ceremonialists than Wiccans.
Tom, i also find it interesting that some would suggest removal of these symbols from this blade. This is clearly NOT the work of some fantasy role player. These symbols were placed on this blade for a magickal/mystical purpose AND practice. Ceremonial Magick and Wicca are both very valid philosophy/religions which tend to be greatly misunderstood by the uninitiated masses. But i suppose humans have always tended to want to eradicate that with they do not understand.
BTW, the "Lord of Swift Winds" is also a tarot card. The King of Sword is also know as the "Lord of Winds and Breezes" so Mark, it's not just somebody's idea of a cool name. This is a sword that no doubt saw some actual ritual use. People do this kind of thing in Crete just as much as anywhere else, so i don't think it is at all surprising to find it there.

[Andrew]

Just a casual observation: the blade appears shortened. The wide fuller looks like it runs "through" the tip.

[Yannis]

Eftihis
Now I know how to blackmail you to give me one of the cretan knifes you have! I know some ultra orthodox they can come and murmur exorcisms on you and this sword of pagans!

Originally Posted by fearn

There's probably an interesting story about how that blade ended up on Crete, in Eftihis' collection.

I suppose that even in Crete they have heard about Ebay. Oh, globalization!

[eftihis]

Dear friends,
Thanks for all this input, i couldnt imagine this subject to be so interesting!
Yannis, globalisation indeed, because i bought this some years ago as part from a lot of 5 weapons from UK. All the others were "ethnographic" and really old, so i assume this was also old and propably belonged to the same owner. I wanted the other ones, i just had to take this also. (So if somebody wants it, i happily will exchange it with an ethnograpchic!, islamic,greek, balkan or turkish)
So i do not think it was used in role -playing either, since this should have been for some years in a collection.
By the way, yes, the sword is shortened, it is easy to see.

So UK, is the home of the sword before coming to Crete.
It could have never been a local magical utensil here, because i dont thing anybody would write in a language that substitutes the letters of the English alphabet anyway.
It is interesting though that in Crete also, as well in Greece and like in all planet there use to be local magical practises, in which, in the example of Crete, an important role was played by the knife- not sword.
A famous example is the practise use by the young "lyrari" (lyra playing musician of our traditional music) that in order to became a great player, he had to go in a crossroad at night so that the "reraides" (mermaids in English?) will teach him to play perfectly. But for return, they would take his mind, so he would become "crazy". The only remedy is to draw a circle with a black handled cretan knife (only with black horn handle, i dont know why...) on the soil arround him.
The neraides will be arround him and teach him, but cannot enter the circle!

[fearn]

Hi Nechesh,

You could be right about the ceremonial magic part. As for whether the knife represents air or fire, I think that varies by tradition. I seem to recall that Gardnerian wicca uses air=knife, and Alexandrian wicca uses fire=knife (though I might have that reversed). Other groups follow one, the other, or both. It gets to be an interesting argument if you're in to such things, mostly because it starts with statements like "OF COURSE the knife represents...." "You idiot, who taught you?..." and ends up with "You know, this is confusing. Do what feels comfortable to you."

Hi Efithis,

Interesting that the Lyrari use a black-handled knife, because that's exactly what Wicca uses, a black-handled knife (athame). One of the major uses of the athame is to cast a circle, and your sword could basically be a big athame for public events (or whatever) if it's not a ceremonial magician's tool.

It's curious since as I posted about a month ago, no one knows where the term athame came from, although the black-handled knife is an old magician's tool.

Fearn

[Mark]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

I'm still really puzzled by the hostility toward the very likely sincere religious inscription. I'm not nuts about electric engraving, but it's interesting to see from a bunch that usually isn't that hot on re-doing/undoing.....This may not be my favourite engraving, but let me be very clear: it is NOT damage.

I wasn't being hostile, but at the time I made that comment about defacing the sword, I was assuming that it was part of some fantasy role-player's costume. I have no problem with fantasy role-players in costume, either; I just don't think modifying a genuine antique in a non-genuine way is appropriate in that context.

I can see the argument that it is a genuine ritual object, in which case it might be better to leave as-is. Wiccan in the U.S. has a very pop-culture aspect to it, though, so sometimes I wonder how often someone is following a fad when they take up Wiccan, and thus is really justified (or even qualified) to create such a ritual object. The UK I think has a very well established and sincere Wiccan community, however, so seeing as its most likely from there, it also is most likely a genuine ritual object.

Sort of a quandry -- should one preserve the original state/use of an article, or maintain it as it might have been modified for a later or different use?

[RobT]

Hi.
I have listened in to the forum for about two years and am deeply indebted to to the moderators and members for the knowledge gained. Due to my lack of a digital camera, my opportunities for contribution have been limited so this will be my first posting. I would like to point out the similarity between the lyrari/reraides legend that eftihis mentioned and the Mississippi delta blues legend in the US. According to the story, if a musician brings his guitar to the crossroads at midnight there will be someone waiting there (some say it's the devil but there is not complete agreement about this). The musician hands the guitar to the entity and the entity tunes up the guitar and hands it back to the musician. After that, the musician can play anything he (or presumably she) wants. The price for this service is proported to be rather high including sorrow, loss of loved ones, estrangement from the fellowship of men, madness, death, and/or loss of one's immortal soul. Considered against the typical existence of a black sharecropper in the delta however, it is arguably a good deal. It was said that the famous blues musician Robert Johnson, faced with that choice, made this bargain. The thing that I find amazing is that two dissimilar cultures, with no historical contact, could come up with such a similar legend.

[Rick]

Hi Rob , there seems to be a thread that connects many myths through many cultures .
An interesting book on this subject is Hamlet's Mill (An essay on myth and the frame of time) .

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by RobT

The thing that I find amazing is that two dissimilar cultures, with no historical contact, could come up with such a similar legend.

This contact could exist. Crete is only 300 km from North Africa. There was exchange of ideas since Ancient Egyptians – Minoans civilizations. I am not an expert on the subject but I see a probable link to Afroamericans and the blues culture.

Also I was dining with a lyrari 2 nights ago. I asked him about this legend and he agreed. In his version the musician has to point a finger out of the circle so Neraidas (=fairies) can bite and taste some of his blood.

A third person was there and he knew the legend too. In his version there are no Neraidas but devils, so the musician risks his soul.

[Conogre]

Old folk religions between the deep south and even more so, the mountainous regions is often truly amazing......that was the first region in which I'd ever heard of "sin eaters", long before the recent movie, and likewise an area in which folk tunes were often preserved almost intact directly from old Celtic songs, and verbally/musically, as many of the people were illiterate.
The lyrari/Neraidas goes all the way back to ancient Greece and before, while the blues analogy reared into popular culture a few years back with the song "The Devil Goes Down To Georgia" by the Charlie Daniels band.
Old Celtic folk tales are truly amazing, with so many, such as silkies/selkies, old Meg and such rooted thousands of years in the past.
Don't forget, the ancient Greeks were the original world travellers, as far as is known, and had direct contact with parts of Africa, Turkey (Troy) and others, to the point that even some of the old testament bible information from 2,000 years ago is directly attributable to them for its origins.
When this thread caught fire, the world wide membership responded in a fashion that shows how much the family of man actually is exactly just that much more so than any I can think of in a long while.
Mike