Cambodian Dhas

[ariel]

Dhafia to the rescue!
I just bought this trio on a lark. The seller said he got them in Cambodia. I show them the way they are, no cleaning, just to show the amount of patina.
The first one is a Dha, 72 cm in length total, the blade alone is 51 cm. Very primitively made, with a lot of pockmarks.The handle is wood, turned. There are two iron collars. The "tsuba" is ~ 8 cm in diameter, pretty thin and composed of layers: there is an overlay of softish metal all over and it is covered with vegetal designs on a crosshatched background, rather pretty. The scabbard appears to be newer, with the halves joined by wooden pins.
The knife is 29 cm, blade alone 19.5 cm long and 1.7 cm wide. It is single edged, and there are some simple designs along the blade, reminescent of what is often seen on Thai Darbs. The handle is wood, with old and very tight rattan bindings and a small brass collar with indents.The scabbard looks newer, brass fittings on both ends.
The last one is 83 cm long, blade alone is 64 cm long and 2 cm wide at the base, widening to 4.5 cm at the tip. The quality of the blade is much higher than the Dha's.The base of the blade has a wavy projection on the edge side ( blade-catcher?) There is a very thin fuller running along the entire back of the blade. The handle is wood, with a 9 cm iron collar and a brass shell 27 mm in diameter.
I have a feeling that all the wooden parts on all swords are old, but newer than the blades.
Questions:
- Are these Cambodian?
-Any particular names?
- The "tsuba" on the Dha and the "blade catcher" on the other sword suggest to me that these are not agricultural implements. Correct?
- Where does shell come from?
- How old do you think they might be?

[Ian]

Hi Ariel:

Need better pics to give any sort of opinion. I think the third one you show is actually from a pole arm. There are Vietnamese and Thai pole weapons of similar form.

Note a similar example from Vietnam here: http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/art...page=vietsword Perhaps something in common with the mak used by the Montagnard of Vietnam, Laos, and possibly Cambodia. There are also Chinese pole arms of similar form that may be the inspiration for the form in SE Asia. Philip and Scott could no doubt contribute more on the Chinese connection.

Ian.

[kai]

Good catch, Ariel!

I'm also voting for polearm.

Regards,
Kai

[~Alaung_Hpaya~]

I'm not an expert but the scabbard and tsuba combinations are similar to the ones listed as Cambodian on Mark's website ( they're actually are part of Ian's collection ) . There's a picture of one of them on the History of Steel's website:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/images1/263-iag04.jpg


The turned wooden grip looks Thai ( Siamese ) and many modern Thai daab share this feature . The knife looks like a Thai priest knife and I would agree that the markings look Thai .

I think Ian's subsequent response would give you the definitive answer to your questions.

[Andrew]

I think Cambodian weapons are ripe for more research. Frankly, I have yet to really get a good appreciation for what, exactly, constitutes a "Cambodian" sword. Ian does have a few that defy easy insertion into the more familiar classification groups, but I think we've all tended to fall back on "Cambodian" as a default in such cases. Not to say the reasoning that gets us there isn't sound, just that it lacks extensive data to support it.

Ariel, I like this group of weapons very much. Thanks for sharing with us. If you ever want to part with that pole-arm/sword catcher, please contact me immediately!

[Mark]

The second one is very interesting. No opinion about it being a polearm blade, but it sounds plausible.

The features of a Cambodian dha are a sharp change or bend in the overall sweep of the sword between the blade and the handle, something Ian has identified, the presence often of a tsuba, and a scabbard with an upswept tip rather than the square or round ones seen in other dha. I don't think we have enough strongly-provenanced blades to really confirm whether these are consistent, nor indeed even if such swords are "Cambodian" (i.e., Khmer) as opposed to being of a Tai minority.

[Jason Anstey]

the first one does seem to have a Japanese appearance to the "tsuba" and basic blade shape. The tsuba has what looks to be an oval marking around the blade indicating it might have originally had a seppa (washer) also the oval hole is for a small utility knife (kozuka/ Kogatana).

I apologise if these are very obvious comments. If you were able to remove the handle to we can see the tang then maybe more info will come to light.

My guess is that it is a composite piece using an old japanese blade and tsuba?

Cheers

Jason

[ariel]

Jason,
Wish you were right.....
No, there is no chance this blade was made my Masamune, Muramasa or even the most undistiguished Japanese smith This is a product of a very primitive village foundry, far, far away from Bizen...
No sense disassemmbling it.
The tsuba is , as you say, reminescent of a Japanese general geschtalt, but is definitely NOT Japanese either: its core is soft metal ( copper? I seem to see some reddish hue) and is clad on both sides with another metal that even peeled off the base. The decorative motives are pretty basic and technically simple over the weekend I shall gently clean them and see what transpires.
Hope to find an inscription " This belongs to Mr. Pol Pot. Pretty please do not touch. Or else...."

[Jason Anstey]

Hahahaha

Yes I probably should have worded my thoughts a little better. - Its not going to be the lost heirloom piece missing from the Imperial Castle. However I have never seen any other guard/ tsuba thingy that has a hole exactly in position for a small knife other than Japanese. THe basic shape is Japanese-ish maybe a WW2 tourist GI piece from the islands that found its way to Cambodia?

Copper and soft metals are very common on genuine tsuba as are rough and basic designs. I dunno but the tsuba is the bit that had me intrigued?

Cheers

JAson

[Mark]

I think that it is more likely that the tsuba is an immitation. You see a strong Japanese influence on dha the further east you go in this area.

Maybe Rich Stein will have a comment on whether soft metal was ever used by the Japanese.

[PUFF]

Very nice, indeed.

The first one, japanese influenced weapon with primitively made does not surprise me. There were active japanese soldier in Ayuthaya during 16c then they moved to Malaya peninsular and, later, to what so called today "cambodia". Steel composition and homnogenity might give some clue about its age.

I do not have any idea about the second knife. From pics, it looks like integral handle. Anyway, I could be wrong. Again, steel composition might give a hint.

The third one was a pole weapon. There are similar pieces in weaponary room at the Thai 's nation museum. This kind of weapon could be either considered as Khmer or Khmer-influenced Siam weapon. If it has thick spine, it 's not for only parade and you can put 100-200 yo (at least) on it.

[ariel]

Boys,
I gave a very mild cleaning to the Dha and I may owe deep apologies to its Master. I think it is not a primitive village work but a lot of age! The quality appears to be much higher than I thought.
First, similar to the Japanese swords, it has "domed" spine. Second, it has no warping at all! You know that virtually all long "Oriental" blades are warped to a degree. This is seen on almost all Persian, Tturkish, Indian and, certainly, all SE Asian blades I have seen. Only Japanese smiths managed to control it using vises. Well, this one is straight as an arrow! The areas of pitting, I think, are not due to imperfect manufacture but to aging. If I saw a Caucasian/Turkish blade in such a shape, I would have guessed its age well beyond the 200-300 years mark. With SEA blades, I need help.The base of the blade is 1 cm thick: it was meant for business.
The tsuba has an inner core of reddish patinated metal with a bit of verdigris and is clad with copper ( now, when it is cleaner, I can see the color).

Any new assessments?

[Andrew]

Ariel, thank you for the new photos--I'm inclined to agree with you. That sword does look like it has significant age, and your observations about the blade are interesting. I'd still lean towards SEA manufacture on the blade, which can easily be determined if you have the nerve to attempt removal of the handle. The shape and appearance of the tang will be revealing. Likewise, a polished "window" on the blade would be interesting.

The tsuba looks, to my untrained eye, to be a genuine Japanese item. I would speculate this is a locally made blade fit with an imported guard. Perhaps Rich, or someone with more Nihonto experience, could comment on the tsuba?

[Andrew]

Ariel generously sent me the odd blade with the flamboyant prong (thanks! ). I've spent a good bit of time handling and examining it. This is, in my opinion, a Thai weapon.

This thing has significant age. The patina is thick, black and stable. I am convinced this is the blade from a pole-weapon later mounted as a sword. The blade itself has what appears to be a spike tang typical for weapons of the region, along with a steel collar. I wouldn't be suprised if a guard were present at some point in its history. The wooden handle is newer than the blade and collar, and has been hand-fit with an old brass shell casing as a pommel.

The spine is thick at the forte (1/2"), and demonstrates a gradual, even distal taper to the tip. The blade is simple, sturdy and shows signs of differential hardening along the edge within the patina. It is, also, quite blade heavy, with the POB approximately 10" before the handle. The edge is remarkably sharp, with an "apple-seed" geometry. Striking in that there is clear evidence of extensive use and wear, but no real recent signs of sharpening.

Overall, I think this is a serious weapon, albeit with very little ornamentation or decoration. Perfect for lopping off limbs, or fighting from atop an elephant.

I hope to remount it with an appropriate pole.

[PUFF]

I wish, I can take a pic of those in the museum. But, still, have no chance.

[Andrew]

Thanks, Puff. Example #3 looks very similar, with the flamboyant prong at the base of the blade.

Dan Wilke was able to sneak some photos of the Royal Museum's collection and shared them with us on this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=thai+museum

In one of the last photos, he was showing some keris, but you can see some mounted pole-arms below it, including a spear and the tops of two blades that look very similar to the one we're discussing.

Andrew

[PUFF]

Not exactly, those two pieces are Ngaw (pole-blade/Naginata style)

[ariel]

Sorry for bumping it up, but I really want some opinions on the Dha. I cannot remember any Japanese tsuba of such construction and I also would like to know what do you think of the blade. Age, geographical origin etc

[PUFF]

I heard of Sanmai type from http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/tsuba/sanmai.htm

[ariel]

Many thanks! I never heard of this type...
So, the tsuba might easily be Japanese.
But what about the blade? I certainly do not wish to break the handle in search of the tang ( potentially, non-existing already...)

[Andrew]

Ariel, you might consider contacting Philip Tom to attempt some forensic restoration on that sword. He may be able to remove the handle to examine the tang and polish a small window to get a good look at the blade construction.

[Philip]

In terms of overall form, the disc guard with oval lateral aperture as seen on Ariel's dha is something quite frequently encountered on some types of Vietnamese sabers. I think that the origin of the auxiliary apertures (there can be one or two) is definitely Japanese. As stated in Huard and Durand's CONNAISSANCE DU VIET-NAM (Hanoi: Ecole Francaise d'Extreme-Orient, 1954) p 155, there was a considerable import of Japanese swords into SE Asia in the 16th cent. Originally, the aperture(s) were to allow removal of the by-knife and skewer that are usually contained on the sides of Japanese scabbards. These accessories were not used on Vietnamese scabbards so the continued presence of the openings on locally-made versions of tsubas is for stylistic reasons only.

I have an example of a Vietnamese saber (guom) whose circular brass guard has two lateral openings. Recently I obtained several excavated bronze Vietnamese disc guards, reputedly obtained in the area of Hoi An, which boasted a resident Japanese merchant colony in the 16th-17th cent. (a covered bridge, and several graves, are extant testimonies to this community). One of the guards has a single D-shaped side opening, in this case too small to be of any functional use. Otherwise, the guard is multi-lobed with depictions of lions, dogs, and unicorns in relief, having a more Chinese flavor to the shape and art work. I have two others, both silver-inlaid copper, in which the apertures have morphed into S- and lozenge-shaped openings. Here, these also appear to be an original Japanese concept which has become modified with the strong Chinese elements which are integral parts of Vietnam's decorative arts.

[ariel]

So, Philip, what do you think: is it Cambodian or Vietnamese?

[Philip]

Ariel,
When I compare the guard on your sword with the loose bronze Vietnamese guards (the excavated ones) I have, I note the following. Your specimen is thinner, and without any flange or raised border around the rim. Some of the decorative motifs on yours bear some similarity to Vietnamese work, albeit in lower relief and with somewhat less precision. The shape of the oval aperture is spot on to those of other Vietnamese saber guards I've seen elsewhere.

I am at a loss to explain the flaking or spalling to the surface of your specimen.

In one of the pictures you posted, taken from the hilt side, I notice that a bit of the central mortise (for the blade) seems to extend beyond the periphery of the grip ferrule. I wonder if the guard is associated, and came from a hilt that originally had a wider blade. The frontal side shows some sort of dark brown fill surrounding the blade where it emerges from the guard. I'm wondering if this was put on to hold the guard steady on the tang, considering the apparent differential between the tang and mortise widths.

From what I can see of the rest of the hilt (your photos are a bit dark), I don't see any typically Vietnamese design features. I doubt that guard and sword were "born together", and if the dha is Cambodian, it's possible that the guard may be an import from Vietnam, or a locally made copy thereof.

[Mark]

The details of the tsuba aside, it appears to me to be a fairly typical Cambodian dha. They tend to have disk-shaped guards, thinner, more evenly-tapered blades, and a distinctive "break" in the line of the curve of the blade and handle where handle meets blade.

[PUFF]

Here 's an example of Pae-Kak 's pole. Image from http://www.bladereview.com/forums/index.php?topic=3277
The pics were taken from The National Museum of Thailand, Bangkok.