Ottoman Shamshir Pictures

ALEX · 8th April 2007, 06:24 PM

For all Shamshir enthusiasts (especially Ariel and Rick

Not often one can find a nicely preserved and original shamshir like this one. One thing for sure: this sword WILL appreciate in price regardless of market conditions

ariel · 8th April 2007, 07:27 PM

It IS superb, no doubt! Wootz and all...
Enjoy it for its beauty, but do not be 100% sure about its investment value: better things lost their value during depressions....
This is not gloating or bad omen: we are all in the same boat. As long as the markets are strong and disposable incomes are high, people "invest" into antiques. When (not "if") the economic situation gets bad, collectors sell their stuff for peanuts just to buy bread. Not only antiques: jewelry, homes, land, everything. You cannot eat wootz, paintings, rare manuscripts or diamonds...
This was true in Weimar Germany, US in the early 1930s, Russia in the 1990s and all around Europe after WWII.
The appreciation in the price of antique weapons is an illusion: as long as one is not a dealer with constant turnover, one sells something only to buy another, more expensive item and keep it. We never see profits, just upward-spiraling accumulation of things that eventually may have to be sold for a song....
That is why collecting is a "noble madness"

ham · 8th April 2007, 07:40 PM

I must agree with Alex. That is, if one is a wise buyer-- checking the market, comparing similar examples through auction catalogues, etc. before buying.

In many decades of active collecting I have had few rude surprises.
If, on the other hand, one is incautious one reaps what he sows. As for inexperience.... call it the price of tuition in the hallowed halls of this "noble madness." As Ariel notes, there is of course little accounting for political/economic upheavals, but then few collectors are so thoroughly invested in antiques alone that the possibility of overextension through a surfeit of krises, patas, etc. severe enough to result in total financial ruin seems a touch remote... much likelier such a collector would suffer loss of spouse first, which if nothing else might give him pause to reflect on his collecting habits....

Superlative sword here, complete with knot. Don't find them nicer than this.

Ham

RSWORD · 8th April 2007, 08:27 PM

Thanks for sharing this lovely shamshir. Quite rare to get one these days this complete.

ALEX · 8th April 2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Not only antiques: jewelry, homes, land, everything. You cannot eat wootz, paintings, rare manuscripts or diamonds...

Ariel, you obviously correct. However, in case of a terrible disaster, I'd not be worrying about my investments, I'd be worrying about my life, so - until then - I'll keep collecting

My point is - investing in a Good quality original sword is generally better and safer than most conventional investments, i.e. banks, stocks, real estate, gambling

At least it has been, and I do not see any reason it'll change.

HUSAR · 9th April 2007, 10:05 AM

Very nice sword, for sure most of us would find enough space on the wall

even in very crowdy collections

Thanks for sharing pictures!
best
HUSAR

Yannis · 9th April 2007, 12:35 PM

Really this is a fine shamshir. But it is probably not complete (I play devil’s advocate now

). There is a piece of metal missing from the throat. A kind of flap or lid (not sure for the English word – not sure about the name of it in my language too

).

It is a long piece of metal that covers the cut of the upper side of the scabbard. Any of you that has seen it, he knows what I am talking about.

Usually you can say that is missing from 2 little rings close to the upper ring for hanging. Sometimes these little rings are cut off, after the lost of the flap. Alex, please take a look (or a picture) there. Are there any signs?

I have seen only 3 shamshirs with this flap present. I don’t remember if I have ever seen an ottoman shamshir of this quality without signs of the lost flap.

Alex, even if you find signs of missing flap, forget it. This is one of the finest shamshirs in our world. I envy it.

Yannis · 9th April 2007, 12:51 PM

Alex, thank you for sharing this with us. I feel guilty that maybe after my last post you and probably any other owner of shamshir you are looking for signs of missing flap. I just wanted to add something to our knowledge of these beautiful weapons.

ALEX · 9th April 2007, 01:38 PM

Yannis,
Thanks for noticing it, and no need to apologize. You're absolutely correct, many fine Ottoman shamshirs do have metal plates which cover the opening of the scabbard and click/attach to a crossguard. This sword has no signs of such a plate being there. I've seen another similar shamshirs with original scabbard, and also without any signs of that plate. The cover, by the way, is stamped with multiple Sultan tughras. Perhaps these swords are not that good to be covered/secured by any plates (or too good

Thanks again for your comments

RSWORD · 10th April 2007, 03:44 AM

I have a shamshir in which the scabbard has this "dust flap". I find it rather annoying because over the centuries it has become slightly bent and seems impractical from a functional point of view. I imagine many of these things were purposely removed because they can become so annoying. Since they are so uncommon I don't think it hinders this example as being called "complete" because many were made without this flapper. But it is a good thing to comment on because these things are not common.

ALEX · 10th May 2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

...Not often one can find a nicely preserved and original shamshir like this one...

Hey guys,
I just learned (after some careful analysis and investigation) that the top part of the scabbard is NEW !!!!!! I mean Brand New. Very well done for sure, but the fact is that it is NOT 100% original. Still, nice restoration and nice sword overall. I also met the person who restored it, and his work is impeccable, i.e. as close to original as feasibly possible. And he is an honest person, even more rare find than the ottoman shamshir:-) I'll show you his work and the swords soon, it well deserves the attention.

8th April 2007, 06:24 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Ottoman Shamshir Pictures For all Shamshir enthusiasts (especially Ariel and Rick Not often one can find a nicely preserved and original shamshir like this one. One thing for sure: this sword WILL appreciate in price regardless of market conditions Attached Images

8th April 2007, 07:40 PM	#3
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	I must agree with Alex. That is, if one is a wise buyer-- checking the market, comparing similar examples through auction catalogues, etc. before buying. In many decades of active collecting I have had few rude surprises. If, on the other hand, one is incautious one reaps what he sows. As for inexperience.... call it the price of tuition in the hallowed halls of this "noble madness." As Ariel notes, there is of course little accounting for political/economic upheavals, but then few collectors are so thoroughly invested in antiques alone that the possibility of overextension through a surfeit of krises, patas, etc. severe enough to result in total financial ruin seems a touch remote... much likelier such a collector would suffer loss of spouse first, which if nothing else might give him pause to reflect on his collecting habits.... Superlative sword here, complete with knot. Don't find them nicer than this. Ham Last edited by ham; 8th April 2007 at 07:52 PM.

8th April 2007, 07:27 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It IS superb, no doubt! Wootz and all... Enjoy it for its beauty, but do not be 100% sure about its investment value: better things lost their value during depressions.... This is not gloating or bad omen: we are all in the same boat. As long as the markets are strong and disposable incomes are high, people "invest" into antiques. When (not "if") the economic situation gets bad, collectors sell their stuff for peanuts just to buy bread. Not only antiques: jewelry, homes, land, everything. You cannot eat wootz, paintings, rare manuscripts or diamonds... This was true in Weimar Germany, US in the early 1930s, Russia in the 1990s and all around Europe after WWII. The appreciation in the price of antique weapons is an illusion: as long as one is not a dealer with constant turnover, one sells something only to buy another, more expensive item and keep it. We never see profits, just upward-spiraling accumulation of things that eventually may have to be sold for a song.... That is why collecting is a "noble madness"

8th April 2007, 08:27 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Thanks for sharing this lovely shamshir. Quite rare to get one these days this complete.

9th April 2007, 10:05 AM	#6
HUSAR Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 80	Very nice sword, for sure most of us would find enough space on the wall even in very crowdy collections Thanks for sharing pictures! best HUSAR

9th April 2007, 12:35 PM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Really this is a fine shamshir. But it is probably not complete (I play devil’s advocate now ). There is a piece of metal missing from the throat. A kind of flap or lid (not sure for the English word – not sure about the name of it in my language too ). It is a long piece of metal that covers the cut of the upper side of the scabbard. Any of you that has seen it, he knows what I am talking about. Usually you can say that is missing from 2 little rings close to the upper ring for hanging. Sometimes these little rings are cut off, after the lost of the flap. Alex, please take a look (or a picture) there. Are there any signs? I have seen only 3 shamshirs with this flap present. I don’t remember if I have ever seen an ottoman shamshir of this quality without signs of the lost flap. Alex, even if you find signs of missing flap, forget it. This is one of the finest shamshirs in our world. I envy it.

9th April 2007, 12:51 PM	#8
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Alex, thank you for sharing this with us. I feel guilty that maybe after my last post you and probably any other owner of shamshir you are looking for signs of missing flap. I just wanted to add something to our knowledge of these beautiful weapons.

9th April 2007, 01:38 PM	#9
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Yannis, Thanks for noticing it, and no need to apologize. You're absolutely correct, many fine Ottoman shamshirs do have metal plates which cover the opening of the scabbard and click/attach to a crossguard. This sword has no signs of such a plate being there. I've seen another similar shamshirs with original scabbard, and also without any signs of that plate. The cover, by the way, is stamped with multiple Sultan tughras. Perhaps these swords are not that good to be covered/secured by any plates (or too good Thanks again for your comments

10th April 2007, 03:44 AM	#10
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	I have a shamshir in which the scabbard has this "dust flap". I find it rather annoying because over the centuries it has become slightly bent and seems impractical from a functional point of view. I imagine many of these things were purposely removed because they can become so annoying. Since they are so uncommon I don't think it hinders this example as being called "complete" because many were made without this flapper. But it is a good thing to comment on because these things are not common.