Another jambiya in need of some TLC. WARNING: painful pictures inside

FenrisWolf · 4th February 2007, 02:36 PM

I bought this dagger several years ago and it's languished in a drawer since then. The hilt was broken when I unwrapped it, but I dropped it while doing so, so there was a 50-50 chance I did it. As such I didn't feel right about returning it to the seller.

I've looked at it a few times with an eye to restoring it, but as you can see I have my work cut out for me. Not only is there the new break to pin and glue, but a much older break involving the joining of the blade and the hilt was *very* sloppily done. And then to top it off, there's the huge chip out of the blade where it obviously ran into something much harder than it was. Then there's the overall rust and mild surface pitting to be dealt with, not to mention the RATTLESNAKE SKIN some yahoo up in Alaska (the seller lived in Sitka) used on the sheath in place of velvet!

So, why now? Well, I can't be sure, but I think I have another wootx blade hiding under all the neglect. It's also huge, 14 1/2" for the blade alone.

So, does anyone have recommendations, suggestions, links to discussions of similar projects? I think I can use a dremel to free the blade from the hiltand then make sure it's reset properly, but I need to know what to use for cement. Epoxy is one idea I had, but it would show up against the ivory. I can live with that for the center break as it'll match the glue that was used to repair the earlier break, but something else was used to attach the blade. Please, any hints at all would be helpful.

Also, how much fussing should I do with the chip? An earlier owner already ground it own some, so there's no pristine condition to worry about.

Emanuel · 4th February 2007, 05:37 PM

Aye! That's some mean damage! I'm amazed that the tang is so short...on Kurdish khanjars it practically goes through the whole hilt I think. The gluing together could be achieved with a variety of epoxy and forms of cutler's cement...there was a recent post about how to mix some up, and you could use powdered pigment to match the ivory colour.

I have no idea how the blade was originally set, but maybe it would loosen under heat.

As for the blade nick??! I have a similar problem with an old khukri, where a part of the edge had delaminated in time, coming loose after a couple of whacks on a log

I think further grinding would be too destructive in this case, and it would ruin the lines of the blade...

The best and hardest solution I can think of is finding a competent bladesmith who could sort of re-forge and harden the edge...but then could also ruin any wootz structure...alternately, you could use some steel epoxy to fill in the edge so the nick and crack doesn't propagate any further.

14" is huge!! It's almost a short sword...From the cut of the hilt this looks Albanian? It's beautiful, I hoe you can bring its glory back!

Emanuel

FenrisWolf · 4th February 2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Aye! That's some mean damage! I'm amazed that the tang is so short...on Kurdish khanjars it practically goes through the whole hilt I think. The gluing together could be achieved with a variety of epoxy and forms of cutler's cement...there was a recent post about how to mix some up, and you could use powdered pigment to match the ivory colour.

I have no idea how the blade was originally set, but maybe it would loosen under heat.

As for the blade nick??! I have a similar problem with an old khukri, where a part of the edge had delaminated in time, coming loose after a couple of whacks on a log

I think further grinding would be too destructive in this case, and it would ruin the lines of the blade...

The best and hardest solution I can think of is finding a competent bladesmith who could sort of re-forge and harden the edge...but then could also ruin any wootz structure...alternately, you could use some steel epoxy to fill in the edge so the nick and crack doesn't propagate any further.

14" is huge!! It's almost a short sword...From the cut of the hilt this looks Albanian? It's beautiful, I hoe you can bring its glory back!

Emanuel

Yeah, I was pretty surprised about the short tang as well; from the way the original, old break occured it looks like it can't go more than an inch back into the ivory, perhaps less. The blade is actually slightly loose as it is, so it hopefully will just be a matter of carefully chipping away whatever they used to glue it in, without damaging the hilt. It's hard to see in the pics, but it looks like the tang was broken and welded back onto the blade.

As to the chip, it fortunately is a clean divot out of the edge, with no crack moving away from the site. I think my best bet will be to carefully smooth out the sharp corners so it doesn't snag, and just leave it as is. Once the rest of the rust and hilt damage is cleared up it won't be so glaring an injury. If it was shallower or further towards the tip I *might* have let a professional knifemaker with the right equipment reshape the blade, but as it is they'd have to take away around a 1/4 of the blade in order to preserve the lines, and the gods alone know what that would to to the temper let alone any wootz pattern that might exist.

Albanian, eh? That's what I love about ethnic pieces like this. How the heck did an Albanian jambiya end up in Sitka, Alaska? Has it been sitting around there since the days of the Russian fur trade, or was it a later arrival? I'll never know, but it's fun to speculate!

kai · 6th February 2007, 09:43 AM

Please, no Dremel!

Ask a dentist about the most stable glue; perfect color matching should also be possible for a dentist although this color will come up more rarely...

If this is a wootz blade, it could use some polishing & etching from someone competent - others may ruin it. I'd leave the nick alone though. BTW, it's possible that a wootz blade has a welded-on tang.

Does the scabbard fit well with this blade?

Regards,
Kai

FenrisWolf · 6th February 2007, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Please, no Dremel!

Ask a dentist about the most stable glue; perfect color matching should also be possible for a dentist although this color will come up more rarely...

If this is a wootz blade, it could use some polishing & etching from someone competent - others may ruin it. I'd leave the nick alone though. BTW, it's possible that a wootz blade has a welded-on tang.

Does the scabbard fit well with this blade?

Regards,
Kai

Trust me, I know how to use one carefully; I've used one extensively in modelling and the scratch-building of flintlock pistols. I would not use it on the blade, beyond perhap a small, brass-bristled wire wheel to remove any active rust in the deeper pitting. No, the dremel is only for carefully removing the cement holding the blade in place, and to drill a pilot hole for a reinforcing pin at the site of the break.

Polishing the blade is also something I can do; it may not be perfect, but I won't ruin it, either, The trick is to do it by hand, use only superfine and above wet sandpaper with a good gun oil that acts as a rust solvent and inhibitor, and remeber to take it slowly.

Thanks for the info on the tang, at least it makes me hopeful that whoever did it knew what they were doing.

The blade fits the scabbard like a glove; the snakeskin is a later addition, but the scabbard definitely belongs with the blade.

PBishop · 6th February 2007, 03:11 PM

Apart from mending the handle and taking the rust off the blade, I'd leave it exactly the way it is. You could get a jambiya in perfect condition, if that's what you really want, but such a weapon would have no character. The damage adds to the mystique in my opinion.

If anyone asks, you can tell them, "Yeah, I damaged the blade in a duel with a dude who was making unwelcome advances to my girlfriend. He won't be bothering her any more..."

Flavio · 6th February 2007, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBishop

Apart from mending the handle and taking the rust off the blade, I'd leave it exactly the way it is. You could get a jambiya in perfect condition, if that's what you really want, but such a weapon would have no character. The damage adds to the mystique in my opinion.

If anyone asks, you can tell them, "Yeah, I damaged the blade in a duel with a dude who was making unwelcome advances to my girlfriend. He won't be bothering her any more..."

FenrisWolf · 6th February 2007, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PBishop

Apart from mending the handle and taking the rust off the blade, I'd leave it exactly the way it is. You could get a jambiya in perfect condition, if that's what you really want, but such a weapon would have no character. The damage adds to the mystique in my opinion.

If anyone asks, you can tell them, "Yeah, I damaged the blade in a duel with a dude who was making unwelcome advances to my girlfriend. He won't be bothering her any more..."

Nah, that's how I explain away the rust spots on the blade of my sword cane!

Victorian bamboo cane with a 30" german-made foil blade, definitely gets the job done....

Daniel · 6th February 2007, 09:27 PM

I've done some restoration work on bone, ivory and stag and have worked out a method that with a little care can result in a virtually invisible repair.

I start by mixing a small amount of clear epoxy resin (very stable stuff) then with toothpicks I mix in tiny amounts of opaque watercolor pigments till I get an exact color match to the material being repaired. You don't want to use 5 minute epoxy as it doesn't give you enough working time. And you want to start with clear epoxy rather than white, since you want to be able to control the opacity. For bone, ivory, etc. it needs to be slightly translucent.

For pigments, I use designer gouache (available in art stores). It comes pre-mixed in tubes. For most repairs, you'll need small tubes of white, yellow ochre, burnt umber and black. The tiny amount of water based paints doesn't affect the hardening of the epoxy. I mix the epoxy on a paper plate and place little dabs of each of the pigments around the epoxy. I touch the toothpick into the various pigments and mix it into the epoxy till I get a color match. It only takes the tiniest amount of pigment to do the job. Start with a little white to make the epoxy semi-opaque. Then you just add a little of the various colors a touch at a time, mixing them in until the color looks correct. I'm a commercial artist, so my skill in mixing paints is pretty good, but if you take your time and are careful, you can come very close. If you screw up the color, you can just start over. If the color gets too dark, just mix in more whitened epoxy. Touch a little dab of the epoxy on to the piece to see how it close the color is. You can wipe it right off while it's still liquid. The nice thing about pigmented epoxy is that it looks exactly the same when it hardens as when it is liquid. It doesn't get darker or lighter as it sets.

Glue the halves of your handle together using enough of the tinted glue so you get a tiny bit of squeeze out all the way around. You want it to be built up above the surface of the piece. Don't wipe off the excess. In a couple of hours when it begins to harden, you can remove the excess with a razor blade or sharp knife. The next day, polish the seam with a little 4/0 steel wool and it should be barely noticeable. Rough surfaces are easier to repair than smooth ones. I've repaired missing chips in jigged bone and stag that were undetectible to expert scrutiny, even when I disclosed that there had been a repair.

Ivory is a bit tougher, and the color must be very carefully matched. Don't expect a perfect, invisible repair on ivory unless you are really good and/or lucky. But I think you'll get the best repair possible with this method.

You could drill and insert an internal pin or two when gluing, but for display purposes, the repair will probably be nearly as strong as the original material.

DD

David · 6th February 2007, 10:32 PM

Of course there are these guys on the internet. Can't speak from personal experience, but their befores and afters look pretty good:
http://www.ivoryrepair.com/

FenrisWolf · 7th February 2007, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

I've done some restoration work on bone, ivory and stag and have worked out a method that with a little care can result in a virtually invisible repair.

DD

Thanks for the great instructions! That's exactly what I needed; I actually have some tubes of paints that should do the job. I'll pick up some epoxy and experiment with getting the color right before I do the final repair.

That restoration service does beautiful work, but their prices are too rich for my blood. I think with the info I have now I should be able to do it all myself. Thanks again!

FenrisWolf · 8th February 2007, 12:28 AM

I picked up some wet/dry sandpaper 320 grit and above, selected a patch right by the chip, and went to work. It's still too faint to photograph, and I don't want to etch the blade twice, but it IS wootz damascus!

Can't see it clearly enough to determine if there's anything special to the pattern, but I'm more determined than ever to restore it to as close to its original glory as possible. I love projects!

FenrisWolf · 18th February 2007, 01:31 AM

Stage 1 - Hilt has been separated from blade, break in hilt repaired with steel pin and a heavy-duty cyamoacrylic gel used to glue scales onto knife blades:

I've also worked on the socket for the blade's tang (barely 1 1/2 inches long) so that it rests more properly into the hilt.

Next is to finish cleaning the blade a thoroughly as possible without removing too much material or otherwise stressing the metal. Then it's on to the ferric chloride etch to bring up the pattern. More pix as the job progresses!

FenrisWolf · 18th February 2007, 03:13 AM

It hasn't been remounted yet, but this shows the progress on resetting the blade in the hilt. The red line shows the point where the blade enters the ivory. You can see how much more of the tang (which is welded on, BTW) projected from the hilt before I worked on it. I could get it a little deeper, but I think this is just about right.

4th February 2007, 02:36 PM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Another jambiya in need of some TLC. WARNING: painful pictures inside I bought this dagger several years ago and it's languished in a drawer since then. The hilt was broken when I unwrapped it, but I dropped it while doing so, so there was a 50-50 chance I did it. As such I didn't feel right about returning it to the seller. I've looked at it a few times with an eye to restoring it, but as you can see I have my work cut out for me. Not only is there the new break to pin and glue, but a much older break involving the joining of the blade and the hilt was very sloppily done. And then to top it off, there's the huge chip out of the blade where it obviously ran into something much harder than it was. Then there's the overall rust and mild surface pitting to be dealt with, not to mention the RATTLESNAKE SKIN some yahoo up in Alaska (the seller lived in Sitka) used on the sheath in place of velvet! So, why now? Well, I can't be sure, but I think I have another wootx blade hiding under all the neglect. It's also huge, 14 1/2" for the blade alone. So, does anyone have recommendations, suggestions, links to discussions of similar projects? I think I can use a dremel to free the blade from the hiltand then make sure it's reset properly, but I need to know what to use for cement. Epoxy is one idea I had, but it would show up against the ivory. I can live with that for the center break as it'll match the glue that was used to repair the earlier break, but something else was used to attach the blade. Please, any hints at all would be helpful. Also, how much fussing should I do with the chip? An earlier owner already ground it own some, so there's no pristine condition to worry about.

4th February 2007, 05:37 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Aye! That's some mean damage! I'm amazed that the tang is so short...on Kurdish khanjars it practically goes through the whole hilt I think. The gluing together could be achieved with a variety of epoxy and forms of cutler's cement...there was a recent post about how to mix some up, and you could use powdered pigment to match the ivory colour. I have no idea how the blade was originally set, but maybe it would loosen under heat. As for the blade nick??! I have a similar problem with an old khukri, where a part of the edge had delaminated in time, coming loose after a couple of whacks on a log I think further grinding would be too destructive in this case, and it would ruin the lines of the blade... The best and hardest solution I can think of is finding a competent bladesmith who could sort of re-forge and harden the edge...but then could also ruin any wootz structure...alternately, you could use some steel epoxy to fill in the edge so the nick and crack doesn't propagate any further. 14" is huge!! It's almost a short sword...From the cut of the hilt this looks Albanian? It's beautiful, I hoe you can bring its glory back! Emanuel

6th February 2007, 09:43 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Please, no Dremel! Ask a dentist about the most stable glue; perfect color matching should also be possible for a dentist although this color will come up more rarely... If this is a wootz blade, it could use some polishing & etching from someone competent - others may ruin it. I'd leave the nick alone though. BTW, it's possible that a wootz blade has a welded-on tang. Does the scabbard fit well with this blade? Regards, Kai

6th February 2007, 03:11 PM	#6
PBishop Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 11	Apart from mending the handle and taking the rust off the blade, I'd leave it exactly the way it is. You could get a jambiya in perfect condition, if that's what you really want, but such a weapon would have no character. The damage adds to the mystique in my opinion. If anyone asks, you can tell them, "Yeah, I damaged the blade in a duel with a dude who was making unwelcome advances to my girlfriend. He won't be bothering her any more..."

6th February 2007, 09:27 PM	#9
Daniel Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: California Posts: 16	I've done some restoration work on bone, ivory and stag and have worked out a method that with a little care can result in a virtually invisible repair. I start by mixing a small amount of clear epoxy resin (very stable stuff) then with toothpicks I mix in tiny amounts of opaque watercolor pigments till I get an exact color match to the material being repaired. You don't want to use 5 minute epoxy as it doesn't give you enough working time. And you want to start with clear epoxy rather than white, since you want to be able to control the opacity. For bone, ivory, etc. it needs to be slightly translucent. For pigments, I use designer gouache (available in art stores). It comes pre-mixed in tubes. For most repairs, you'll need small tubes of white, yellow ochre, burnt umber and black. The tiny amount of water based paints doesn't affect the hardening of the epoxy. I mix the epoxy on a paper plate and place little dabs of each of the pigments around the epoxy. I touch the toothpick into the various pigments and mix it into the epoxy till I get a color match. It only takes the tiniest amount of pigment to do the job. Start with a little white to make the epoxy semi-opaque. Then you just add a little of the various colors a touch at a time, mixing them in until the color looks correct. I'm a commercial artist, so my skill in mixing paints is pretty good, but if you take your time and are careful, you can come very close. If you screw up the color, you can just start over. If the color gets too dark, just mix in more whitened epoxy. Touch a little dab of the epoxy on to the piece to see how it close the color is. You can wipe it right off while it's still liquid. The nice thing about pigmented epoxy is that it looks exactly the same when it hardens as when it is liquid. It doesn't get darker or lighter as it sets. Glue the halves of your handle together using enough of the tinted glue so you get a tiny bit of squeeze out all the way around. You want it to be built up above the surface of the piece. Don't wipe off the excess. In a couple of hours when it begins to harden, you can remove the excess with a razor blade or sharp knife. The next day, polish the seam with a little 4/0 steel wool and it should be barely noticeable. Rough surfaces are easier to repair than smooth ones. I've repaired missing chips in jigged bone and stag that were undetectible to expert scrutiny, even when I disclosed that there had been a repair. Ivory is a bit tougher, and the color must be very carefully matched. Don't expect a perfect, invisible repair on ivory unless you are really good and/or lucky. But I think you'll get the best repair possible with this method. You could drill and insert an internal pin or two when gluing, but for display purposes, the repair will probably be nearly as strong as the original material. DD

6th February 2007, 10:32 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Of course there are these guys on the internet. Can't speak from personal experience, but their befores and afters look pretty good: http://www.ivoryrepair.com/

8th February 2007, 12:28 AM	#12
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	I picked up some wet/dry sandpaper 320 grit and above, selected a patch right by the chip, and went to work. It's still too faint to photograph, and I don't want to etch the blade twice, but it IS wootz damascus! Can't see it clearly enough to determine if there's anything special to the pattern, but I'm more determined than ever to restore it to as close to its original glory as possible. I love projects!

18th February 2007, 01:31 AM	#13
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Stage 1 - Hilt has been separated from blade, break in hilt repaired with steel pin and a heavy-duty cyamoacrylic gel used to glue scales onto knife blades: I've also worked on the socket for the blade's tang (barely 1 1/2 inches long) so that it rests more properly into the hilt. Next is to finish cleaning the blade a thoroughly as possible without removing too much material or otherwise stressing the metal. Then it's on to the ferric chloride etch to bring up the pattern. More pix as the job progresses!

18th February 2007, 03:13 AM	#14
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	It hasn't been remounted yet, but this shows the progress on resetting the blade in the hilt. The red line shows the point where the blade enters the ivory. You can see how much more of the tang (which is welded on, BTW) projected from the hilt before I worked on it. I could get it a little deeper, but I think this is just about right.