How to disconnect the handle of a tulwar?

Flavio · 23rd December 2006, 01:32 PM

Hi all, i have a tulwar that is a very piece of rust, but cleaning it the blade seems good. Unfortunatly the handle is in very bad conditions, so i'd like to remove the blade from the handle to keep the blade and wait if i will be able to find another handle. How can i remove the handle (that is very firm)? Thank you

RhysMichael · 23rd December 2006, 02:40 PM

I have never taken on apart myself but I have been told that heat can remove it. I have also heard you can still get Zaje Sefid the original resin used to secure them. I'll see what more I can find

Flavio · 23rd December 2006, 02:43 PM

Thank you Michael, i'm waiting

RhysMichael · 23rd December 2006, 02:54 PM

It seems most resins fail at about 200 degrees. I do not know what type of handle it is and how that would effect any koftgari and such. Phillip or Jose would be the people to ask about that. That temperature should not affect the blade. I have read that boiling water will work but other sources tell me it is not hot enough. Some tulwar hilts have a pin running through the tang, near or between the "quillions" but usually they are held together solely by the adhesive Ariel can probably be much more help on this

If you cannot get the original here is a recipe for cutlers resin

http://blackpowderonline.com/cutlrsresin.htm

Flavio · 23rd December 2006, 03:01 PM

Thank you very much

I will try and i will not have problems with koftgari because the handle it's completly covered with deep rust

. Thank you again

Bill M · 23rd December 2006, 03:08 PM

Nomally with resin mounts I hold the handle and gently heat the blade near the handle with a propane torch while holding the handle in an upright position. The heat travels upward into the handle, melting the resin.

If you keep your hand on the handle, (or the blade) you can guage the heat buildup. Take it slowly so you do not remove the temper from the blade, but should come loose in about 20-30 seconds.

In your case, since you do not care about the handle, I would heat the handle with the blade tip up until the handle falls off.

RhysMichael · 23rd December 2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Nomally with resin mounts I hold the handle and gently heat the blade near the handle with a propane torch while holding the handle in an upright position. The heat travels upward into the handle, melting the resin.

If you keep your hand on the handle, (or the blade) you can guage the heat buildup. Take it slowly so you do not remove the temper from the blade, but should come loose in about 20-30 seconds.

In your case, since you do not care about the handle, I would heat the handle with the blade tip up until the handle falls off.

Thanks Bill
As I said above I have never done it only read about it. So its always good to hear from someone with experience. Some sources ('Persian arms and Armor'-Museum Malbrook ISBN 83-86206-31-4 Plate 38,39) talk about molten alum was poured in first then a plug of pine rosin was added to waterproof the assembly. I don't know the temperature that alum melts at

Sorry this stuff is comming piecemeal, Flavio I am adding it as I dig out the stuff I had read on it before when I was thinking about repairing a tulwar I had

katana · 23rd December 2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

. Some sources ('Persian arms and Armor'-Museum Malbrook ISBN 83-86206-31-4 Plate 38,39) talk about molten alum was poured in first then a plug of pine rosin was added to waterproof the assembly. I don't know the temperature that alum melts at

....The melting point of alum is 92.5oC.... I do not know whether the fumes produced are harmful or not....so I would advise caution.....just in case

Flavio · 23rd December 2006, 03:35 PM

Michael, Bill, thank you very much: DONE!!! I have put the handle on fire (on a stove in the kitchen

) just a minute and the resin became softer and the handle can be simple removed!! The blade seems good. Now i will try to put in acid (lemon or vinegar) the handle and just see what happens. Anyway now i need a tulwar handle: nobody here has one?
Thank you very much for the help

P.S. i will post some pics

Flavio · 23rd December 2006, 03:55 PM

Here we go! Some pics of the blade (with a side with a fisrt step of cleaning and the other in the original situation) and the handle that in the general shape is nice but in very bad conditions. If someone has an handle please contact me. Thank you

RhysMichael · 23rd December 2006, 08:22 PM

A nice looking blade I will keep an eye out for a handle

Flavio · 23rd December 2006, 09:20 PM

Thank you Michael

B.I · 24th December 2006, 07:53 PM

Hi Flavio,
Just curious, are you keeping this sword or do you intend on selling it on?

Flavio · 24th December 2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

Hi Flavio,
Just curious, are you keeping this sword or do you intend on selling it on?

Hi Brian, if i will find a nice and not expensive handle i will keep the sword because i really like the blade.

B.I · 25th December 2006, 07:43 AM

Hi Flavio,
Glad to hear it. I have a tulwar handle, which although relatively plain, is in very good condition. I am happy to give it to you as a Christmas gift

Please email (not PM) me and we'll discuss it early in the New Year.
I wish you, and all members a wonderful Christmas, and an active New Year!

Flavio · 25th December 2006, 09:41 AM

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DEAR BRIAN

mail sent

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!

Henk · 25th December 2006, 09:52 AM

Great, that's the spirit of christmas!!! Helping each other out where you can!!

Happy christmas everybody!!!

Flavio · 26th December 2006, 06:27 PM

Well the cleaning of the blade proceeds, but my ignorance about indian weapons is embarrassing

I see that the tang seems to "attached" to the blade: i see a triangular dowel made of a different iron-steel that seems softer

Is the normal way? Thank you

Jens Nordlunde · 26th December 2006, 09:57 PM

Hi Flavio,

Yes you will often see that – nicely done , by the way

.

RhysMichael · 26th December 2006, 10:03 PM

Down this far on the blade would it still be called scarf welding ?

Flavio · 26th December 2006, 10:08 PM

Thank you Jens

asomotif · 27th December 2006, 03:22 PM

Just for information, I once reveived a blade that was discoloured due to heating. (maybe it was done too fast / too hot).

Without any knowledge of metals at all, I decided to reheat it gently and while cooling down, I rubbed the surface with aluminium-foil. (just the simple foil you use in the kitchen.) This made the discolouring disappear.

There will be better and more metalurgic ways to solve this but just a tip.

And best wishes to all. May 2007 be a prosperous and above all healthy year.

Best regards,
Willem

Flavio · 11th February 2007, 01:48 PM

Hi all! I'm still working on this! The handle is arrived (thank you sooooo much Brian

) and I'm also working on the blade: I have polish a little more the blade (just a little part near the tang) and I have thought "why don't try ferric chloride?" (Lew, thanks for the suggestion!). I have tried (just a light etching) and see what I have found!!! a very nice lamination on the edge (that is still a little visible) and concentric spots along the spine!!!

Bill M · 11th February 2007, 02:10 PM

Hi Flavio,

Nice patterns emerging!

Ferric Chloride is available here at our Radio Shack stores.

Ferric Chloride is a good agent if carefully applied. I don't know about other countries, but in the USA you need to use bottled or distilled water to dilute Ferric Chloride or your stain may turn brown, like the old Moro kris I posted recently.

If you want to get rid of the black spots, the Evaporust will remove them. This is always a tough decision, becasue the spots are part of the history of your piece.

But you could see the laminations better. Interestingly enough the Evaporrust also shows laminations.

Flavio · 11th February 2007, 02:52 PM

Hi Bill, yes the pattern is very nice (I have polished and etched another little piece of the blade and it's emerging better, but now I have stopped myself because it's quite hard to do and because I have finished the very fine sandpaper

). I don't know if I want to eliminate completely the black spots, because they are, as you have said, part of the history of the blade, and I don't want that the blade seems over-cleaned (and maybe already is over-cleaned

, but was completely heavy rusted and so I have been forced to clean the blade in this way). Anyway thank you for let me know that exist this product (Evaporust) that I didn't know and that I will try in future (also on non-sharp things

)

Jens Nordlunde · 11th February 2007, 04:10 PM

You have done a good job Flavio

. To restore very rusty blades to their earlier glory, is a very big job, where you better not count the hours used. Besides, you will have to stop and consider how far you want to go, during the process of cleaning the blade. Nice pattern on the blade

.

Flavio · 11th February 2007, 04:44 PM

Thank Jens! Yes a very big job!! I think that I will clean the blade, but some black spots will remain on it. I will try to eliminate the scratches that are inevitable when you use sand paper with coarse-grained. Than, I will etch the blade to see entirely the pattern. But I need of a lot of days of work

Flavio · 18th February 2007, 11:35 AM

Well, the work is almost finished!! I have cleaned the handle, the blade, etched the blade (but the pattern is visible just a little due to the rust pitting

, anyway maybe you can see something from pics and I assure you that is more visible if you look de visu the blade). First I have tried with vinegar, but I wasn't able to bring out the pattern and so I have etched the blade with ferric chloride. I have attached the blade with the hilt with a lot of epoxy putty (Milliput white) and than I have used what here in Italy we call "PECE GRECA" (conifer resin) with colored (dark brown) wax bee to harmonize the conjunction between blade and hilt (but i have to polish the "PECE GRECA" with some steel wool). A lot of work, but the result is quite satisfactory

. So thank you all for your suggestions and specially to Brian!!!

Jens Nordlunde · 18th February 2007, 12:16 PM

Hi Flavio,

You have done a very good job on the blade, and the hilt fits well to the blade, congratulations

.

Flavio · 18th February 2007, 12:22 PM

Hello dear Jens,

Thank you very much

Flavio

23rd December 2006, 01:32 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	How to disconnect the handle of a tulwar? Hi all, i have a tulwar that is a very piece of rust, but cleaning it the blade seems good. Unfortunatly the handle is in very bad conditions, so i'd like to remove the blade from the handle to keep the blade and wait if i will be able to find another handle. How can i remove the handle (that is very firm)? Thank you

23rd December 2006, 03:55 PM	#10
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Here we go! Some pics of the blade (with a side with a fisrt step of cleaning and the other in the original situation) and the handle that in the general shape is nice but in very bad conditions. If someone has an handle please contact me. Thank you Attached Images

26th December 2006, 06:27 PM	#18
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well the cleaning of the blade proceeds, but my ignorance about indian weapons is embarrassing I see that the tang seems to "attached" to the blade: i see a triangular dowel made of a different iron-steel that seems softer Is the normal way? Thank you Attached Images

26th December 2006, 09:57 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Flavio, Yes you will often see that – nicely done , by the way.

11th February 2007, 01:48 PM	#23
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all! I'm still working on this! The handle is arrived (thank you sooooo much Brian ) and I'm also working on the blade: I have polish a little more the blade (just a little part near the tang) and I have thought "why don't try ferric chloride?" (Lew, thanks for the suggestion!). I have tried (just a light etching) and see what I have found!!! a very nice lamination on the edge (that is still a little visible) and concentric spots along the spine!!! Attached Images

23rd December 2006, 02:40 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I have never taken on apart myself but I have been told that heat can remove it. I have also heard you can still get Zaje Sefid the original resin used to secure them. I'll see what more I can find

23rd December 2006, 02:43 PM	#3
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Michael, i'm waiting

23rd December 2006, 02:54 PM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	It seems most resins fail at about 200 degrees. I do not know what type of handle it is and how that would effect any koftgari and such. Phillip or Jose would be the people to ask about that. That temperature should not affect the blade. I have read that boiling water will work but other sources tell me it is not hot enough. Some tulwar hilts have a pin running through the tang, near or between the "quillions" but usually they are held together solely by the adhesive Ariel can probably be much more help on this If you cannot get the original here is a recipe for cutlers resin http://blackpowderonline.com/cutlrsresin.htm

23rd December 2006, 03:01 PM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you very much I will try and i will not have problems with koftgari because the handle it's completly covered with deep rust . Thank you again

23rd December 2006, 03:08 PM	#6
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Nomally with resin mounts I hold the handle and gently heat the blade near the handle with a propane torch while holding the handle in an upright position. The heat travels upward into the handle, melting the resin. If you keep your hand on the handle, (or the blade) you can guage the heat buildup. Take it slowly so you do not remove the temper from the blade, but should come loose in about 20-30 seconds. In your case, since you do not care about the handle, I would heat the handle with the blade tip up until the handle falls off.

23rd December 2006, 03:35 PM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Michael, Bill, thank you very much: DONE!!! I have put the handle on fire (on a stove in the kitchen ) just a minute and the resin became softer and the handle can be simple removed!! The blade seems good. Now i will try to put in acid (lemon or vinegar) the handle and just see what happens. Anyway now i need a tulwar handle: nobody here has one? Thank you very much for the help P.S. i will post some pics

23rd December 2006, 08:22 PM	#11
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	A nice looking blade I will keep an eye out for a handle

23rd December 2006, 09:20 PM	#12
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Michael

24th December 2006, 07:53 PM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Flavio, Just curious, are you keeping this sword or do you intend on selling it on?

25th December 2006, 07:43 AM	#15
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Flavio, Glad to hear it. I have a tulwar handle, which although relatively plain, is in very good condition. I am happy to give it to you as a Christmas gift Please email (not PM) me and we'll discuss it early in the New Year. I wish you, and all members a wonderful Christmas, and an active New Year!

25th December 2006, 09:41 AM	#16
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DEAR BRIAN mail sent MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!

25th December 2006, 09:52 AM	#17
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Great, that's the spirit of christmas!!! Helping each other out where you can!! Happy christmas everybody!!!

26th December 2006, 10:03 PM	#20
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Down this far on the blade would it still be called scarf welding ?

26th December 2006, 10:08 PM	#21
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you Jens

27th December 2006, 03:22 PM	#22
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	Just for information, I once reveived a blade that was discoloured due to heating. (maybe it was done too fast / too hot). Without any knowledge of metals at all, I decided to reheat it gently and while cooling down, I rubbed the surface with aluminium-foil. (just the simple foil you use in the kitchen.) This made the discolouring disappear. There will be better and more metalurgic ways to solve this but just a tip. And best wishes to all. May 2007 be a prosperous and above all healthy year. Best regards, Willem

11th February 2007, 02:10 PM	#24
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Hi Flavio, Nice patterns emerging! Ferric Chloride is available here at our Radio Shack stores. Ferric Chloride is a good agent if carefully applied. I don't know about other countries, but in the USA you need to use bottled or distilled water to dilute Ferric Chloride or your stain may turn brown, like the old Moro kris I posted recently. If you want to get rid of the black spots, the Evaporust will remove them. This is always a tough decision, becasue the spots are part of the history of your piece. But you could see the laminations better. Interestingly enough the Evaporrust also shows laminations.

11th February 2007, 02:52 PM	#25
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Bill, yes the pattern is very nice (I have polished and etched another little piece of the blade and it's emerging better, but now I have stopped myself because it's quite hard to do and because I have finished the very fine sandpaper ). I don't know if I want to eliminate completely the black spots, because they are, as you have said, part of the history of the blade, and I don't want that the blade seems over-cleaned (and maybe already is over-cleaned , but was completely heavy rusted and so I have been forced to clean the blade in this way). Anyway thank you for let me know that exist this product (Evaporust) that I didn't know and that I will try in future (also on non-sharp things )

11th February 2007, 04:10 PM	#26
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	You have done a good job Flavio. To restore very rusty blades to their earlier glory, is a very big job, where you better not count the hours used. Besides, you will have to stop and consider how far you want to go, during the process of cleaning the blade. Nice pattern on the blade.

11th February 2007, 04:44 PM	#27
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank Jens! Yes a very big job!! I think that I will clean the blade, but some black spots will remain on it. I will try to eliminate the scratches that are inevitable when you use sand paper with coarse-grained. Than, I will etch the blade to see entirely the pattern. But I need of a lot of days of work

18th February 2007, 11:35 AM	#28
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Well, the work is almost finished!! I have cleaned the handle, the blade, etched the blade (but the pattern is visible just a little due to the rust pitting , anyway maybe you can see something from pics and I assure you that is more visible if you look de visu the blade). First I have tried with vinegar, but I wasn't able to bring out the pattern and so I have etched the blade with ferric chloride. I have attached the blade with the hilt with a lot of epoxy putty (Milliput white) and than I have used what here in Italy we call "PECE GRECA" (conifer resin) with colored (dark brown) wax bee to harmonize the conjunction between blade and hilt (but i have to polish the "PECE GRECA" with some steel wool). A lot of work, but the result is quite satisfactory . So thank you all for your suggestions and specially to Brian!!! Attached Images

18th February 2007, 12:16 PM	#29
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Flavio, You have done a very good job on the blade, and the hilt fits well to the blade, congratulations.

18th February 2007, 12:22 PM	#30
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello dear Jens, Thank you very much Flavio