Indian? sword for ID

ariel · 15th December 2006, 01:46 PM

Just ended.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0714&rd=1&rd=1
The handle looks like a Phurba, but the blade seems to be of high fighting quality: doubt if it is "ceremonial"
What is it?

katana · 15th December 2006, 02:18 PM

Hi Ariel.
the hilt ..to me.....looks to be more Oriental. So I think Tibet is a possibillity.
I am also wondering about the balance of this sword. The blade looks to be 'heavy' , and I would expect the pommel to be more substantial to aid balance. As a one handed sword...which this is....it looks to be a little unwieldy and cumbersome. Is it possible that the blade was rehilted?

Bill M · 15th December 2006, 02:54 PM

Could well be Indian, though the handle is less of a phurba and more of a single end Dorje like you find on Nepalese / Tibetan bells and ritual instruments. Never seen a Dorje on a sword, but it looks real enough and would make sense.

The first picture is of a wonderful old shaman bell from Nepal. I asked my freind in Kathmandu why the shaman wanted to part with such a beauitiful vintage bell with such wear useage and patina? He said that the shaman wanted a NEW shiny bell! He considered this one "worn out." I guess we buy a lot of their "worn out" stuff.

I have heard that "vintage" in Japanese translates as "worn out."

The second picture is an iron "Flame Dagger" ritual piece. Tibetan. Just noticed some rust. My lights show detail that is hard to see with regular illumination. Glad that I noticed it. Will do somthiing about it.

Battara · 15th December 2006, 06:23 PM

Ariel this is another type of ceremonial Tibetan sword.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2006, 03:44 AM

It is great to see interest in Indian weapons developing further here on the forum!

In looking at this very interesting piece, the observations on the dorje form pommel are well placed and do of course recall that decorative element on Tibetan ritual items such as the phurba as well as seen on 'parasu' (ritual axe) and 'kartttrika' (ritual chopper). I do believe however that this is an Indian sword and by the hilt, probably either Deccani or Mysori. The blade seems to be of the early khanda type, and the assessment on the date seems reasonably placed c.1800, the blade quite possibly earlier.

The hilt of the sword seems characteristically 'atavistic' in line with many Indian weapons, especially those intended for ceremonial or court purposes, recalling decorative dynamics including 'Tantric' elements (as seen on the Tibetan items) as well as the typical architecturally influenced structure.
The botanical theme of the lower part of the hilt recalls similar hilt guard form as seen on early Pala swords c.10th-13th century (Rawson pp.2 and 9), and the hilt overall carries subtle similarities to Indian dagger forms such as the chilanum.

The hilt on this sword seems to be somewhat associated in style with a number of the forms seen in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" though certainly not necessarily by typology as much as by the symbolically structured and brass characteristic.

Looks like a great acquisition!!

Best regards,
Jim

Bill M · 16th December 2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is great to see interest in Indian weapons developing further here on the forum!

In looking at this very interesting piece, the observations on the dorje form pommel are well placed and do of course recall that decorative element on Tibetan ritual items such as the phurba as well as seen on 'parasu' (ritual axe) and 'kartttrika' (ritual chopper). I do believe however that this is an Indian sword and by the hilt, probably either Deccani or Mysori. The blade seems to be of the early khanda type, and the assessment on the date seems reasonably placed c.1800, the blade quite possibly earlier.

The hilt of the sword seems characteristically 'atavistic' in line with many Indian weapons, especially those intended for ceremonial or court purposes, recalling decorative dynamics including 'Tantric' elements (as seen on the Tibetan items) as well as the typical architecturally influenced structure.
The botanical theme of the lower part of the hilt recalls similar hilt guard form as seen on early Pala swords c.10th-13th century (Rawson pp.2 and 9), and the hilt overall carries subtle similarities to Indian dagger forms such as the chilanum.

The hilt on this sword seems to be somewhat associated in style with a number of the forms seen in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" though certainly not necessarily by typology as much as by the symbolically structured and brass characteristic.

Looks like a great acquisition!!

Best regards,
Jim

Jim,

Your well thought out and erudite reply has motivated me to post a few Indian pieces. Will do so in other theads.

I agree completely with your reply on this great acquisition.

Did one of the fourm people win it?

Merry Christmas
Bill

Jim McDougall · 17th December 2006, 01:08 AM

Hi Bill,
Thanks very much!
Also thank you for the support in furthering our study on Indian weapons, these are so incredibly under researched in most cases. The greatest advance we have had on these has been Robert Elgood's outstanding and seminal work on "Hindu Arms and Ritual". I hope future reference books discussing ethnographic weapons will follow his lead with the excellent perspective he uses so skillfully in the examination and identification of them.

Interesting Tibetan items, and great story on the 'worn out' items!! Uh, I'd be happy to take a whole bunch of new shiny stuff over there to trade for all these old worn out things!!!!

Thanks again, and a very Merry Christmas to you as well,
Jim

Joe · 17th December 2006, 07:19 AM

The same question popped up on SFI last July.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=acalantha

I figured it was some type of acalantha remounted as a temple piece.

ariel · 17th December 2006, 02:55 PM

Not only the same type of sword, it is the same sword!
Look at the forging flaw at the top of the blade.

Jens Nordlunde · 17th December 2006, 05:22 PM

Hi Joe, and welcome to the forum

.

Thank you for the link, of which I was not aware. The sword is indeed either Nepalese or Tibetan, personally I would vote for Nepalese. The blade could have been rehilted, although I doubt it, as all the blades I have seen of this type were riveted to a reinforcement from the hilt, and this one does not have any holes after having been riveted. This type of blade has been used since ancient times in Nepal, which you can see when studying old Nepalese bronze deities.

Jim McDougall · 21st December 2006, 03:05 AM

Excellent observations Jens! I am inclined to opt for the Nepalese possibility as well, over the Tibetan. Tibetan swords typically exhibit the distinctive hairpin pattern welded blades which also preserve the ancient Sui and Tang profiles which later were carried into the familiar Japanese blades. These are also characteristic on Bhutanese swords.
In Nepal, however, there was considerable diffusion of weaponry from India and other regions to the south. It would seem that numerous weapons found in these regions reflect atavistic influence from iconographic sources that may include forms from ancient Greek weapons.

While the interesting pommel does reflect the Tibetan 'dorje' element, as I noted there are certain features in the structure of the hilt that recall distinct Indian influence. Most notable perhaps, would be the unusual 'skirted' form of the lower hilt, which appears in variation on numerous Mughal jade dagger hilts, and mostly of latter 17th thru the 18th c. These are of course mostly from N.India (though Mysore examples are noted) and are shown in a number of examples in Pant (p.205; #607, #609, #611).

It seems entirely plausible that in Nepal, a ceremonial sword might carry influences from both Tibet, to the north, with Tantric elements as well as the aesthetics of Mughal weapons to the south. We know that the kukri was well established in India, though thought of as indiginous to Nepal, and that there are tulwar hilted koras as well as kukris.

I found some interesting notes concerning swords in Bhutan, which may have some bearing on the use of ceremonial swords in Nepal in some degree as well via the influences that seem to diffuse in these regions.
In "Bhutan,Land of the Thunder Dragon" by Burt Kerr Todd (National Geographic, Vol.CII, #6, Dec.1952), the author notes that "...the 'pathang' or ceremonial sword is reserved for wear in or around the dzongs (forts) that dot the countryside. Without the sword, and the appropriate shawl to show his rank, he is not permitted within these centers of Bhutanese central life".

I think these factors may support a Nepalese origin for this sword, as Jens has suggested, as well as his notes on the early iconography in Nepal that depicts this ancient blade form, which is interestingly very similar to the Greek 'phasganon' (Burton, fig.254).

Best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 21st December 2006, 06:15 PM

Hi Jim,
Yes I think we got it, it must be Nepalese. Interesting that this blade type was used over a very large area.

Hi Katana,
You wrote about the balance, but these blades were not very thick, so the balance can have been all right, besides, if it was a ceremonial sword, I don’t think it would have mattered a lot.

Joe · 22nd December 2006, 07:24 AM

I'm inclined to believe you guys on your Nepalese conclusion.

Does anyone have any pics showing a sword of this type with a more Nepalese mounting style?

Also, working one the conclusion that the blade is Indian, could it be classified as a Pattisa blade?

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd December 2006, 05:17 PM

Hi Joe,

Whether the blade was made in India or in Nepal, it is what the Indians would call a Pattisa blade, although the hilt is quite different.

We have a problem here, part of a never-ending discussion, is a sword classified after the blade or after the hilt? A tulwar is a tulwar, be course of the hilt, although the blade can differ a lot. You could call a sword a tulwar with a shamshir blade, or a tulwar with an Indian blade. This would however indicate that the shamshir blades were made outside India, but shamshir blades were also made in India. It really is very complex, so I think the best would be to describe a sword, not using one word only, if it is not a prototype, but to give a short description.

Here is a picture of a Nepalese bronze from 15th/16th century, it is clear to see that the blade is nor fastened with rivets, but with two bands around the blade reinforcement. The hilt is quite different, and would have been held in a different way, but the blade type is the same.

B.I · 22nd December 2006, 08:03 PM

Hi Jens,
I agree that this early form of sword was used throughout Indian and Nepal, and is apparant in sculpture in both medieaval, and post medieaval times. The scrulpture you mention shows this very clearly. However, I think that the langet on all od these swords held the blades via rivets. The 'bands' across the langet are decorative, and no doubt hold some purpose, possibly symbolic. If you look at Rawson (Danish versian) plate 13 and 14, these bands are clearly shown. Plate 13 has the band at the bottom of the langet, but the blade is riveted on. Rawson calls this sword 18thC, but I believe this to date at least 200 years earlier (it is called 'ancient Nepalese by Egerton). This is indeed an early Nepalese sword, and I know of one other example of this extremely rare sword in a private collection.
Fig 14 is a more classically shaped 'patissa', with a band around the langet. this is more than likely loose, and so does not represent a strengthening use. There is another example in the British Museum, shown in Elgoods Hindu Arms, and another in that same private colection mentioned earlier. The band in the example in the private collection is silver and loose, and looks of the same construction as the BM and Copenhagen pieces, hence the assumptions.

Jens Nordlunde · 23rd December 2006, 10:31 PM

Yes I agree with you that Rawson may have hinted a few hundred years later than it is, but if you go further back, I think the blades were fastened with hides. Wet hides will, when they dry, held a blade very close. Later I think they used metal, but then again it is a guess.

15th December 2006, 01:46 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian? sword for ID Just ended. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0714&rd=1&rd=1 The handle looks like a Phurba, but the blade seems to be of high fighting quality: doubt if it is "ceremonial" What is it?

15th December 2006, 02:54 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Could well be Indian, though the handle is less of a phurba and more of a single end Dorje like you find on Nepalese / Tibetan bells and ritual instruments. Never seen a Dorje on a sword, but it looks real enough and would make sense. The first picture is of a wonderful old shaman bell from Nepal. I asked my freind in Kathmandu why the shaman wanted to part with such a beauitiful vintage bell with such wear useage and patina? He said that the shaman wanted a NEW shiny bell! He considered this one "worn out." I guess we buy a lot of their "worn out" stuff. I have heard that "vintage" in Japanese translates as "worn out." The second picture is an iron "Flame Dagger" ritual piece. Tibetan. Just noticed some rust. My lights show detail that is hard to see with regular illumination. Glad that I noticed it. Will do somthiing about it. Attached Images

17th December 2006, 05:22 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Joe, and welcome to the forum. Thank you for the link, of which I was not aware. The sword is indeed either Nepalese or Tibetan, personally I would vote for Nepalese. The blade could have been rehilted, although I doubt it, as all the blades I have seen of this type were riveted to a reinforcement from the hilt, and this one does not have any holes after having been riveted. This type of blade has been used since ancient times in Nepal, which you can see when studying old Nepalese bronze deities.

22nd December 2006, 05:17 PM	#14
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Joe, Whether the blade was made in India or in Nepal, it is what the Indians would call a Pattisa blade, although the hilt is quite different. We have a problem here, part of a never-ending discussion, is a sword classified after the blade or after the hilt? A tulwar is a tulwar, be course of the hilt, although the blade can differ a lot. You could call a sword a tulwar with a shamshir blade, or a tulwar with an Indian blade. This would however indicate that the shamshir blades were made outside India, but shamshir blades were also made in India. It really is very complex, so I think the best would be to describe a sword, not using one word only, if it is not a prototype, but to give a short description. Here is a picture of a Nepalese bronze from 15th/16th century, it is clear to see that the blade is nor fastened with rivets, but with two bands around the blade reinforcement. The hilt is quite different, and would have been held in a different way, but the blade type is the same. Attached Images

15th December 2006, 02:18 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Ariel. the hilt ..to me.....looks to be more Oriental. So I think Tibet is a possibillity. I am also wondering about the balance of this sword. The blade looks to be 'heavy' , and I would expect the pommel to be more substantial to aid balance. As a one handed sword...which this is....it looks to be a little unwieldy and cumbersome. Is it possible that the blade was rehilted?

15th December 2006, 06:23 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Ariel this is another type of ceremonial Tibetan sword.

16th December 2006, 03:44 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	It is great to see interest in Indian weapons developing further here on the forum! In looking at this very interesting piece, the observations on the dorje form pommel are well placed and do of course recall that decorative element on Tibetan ritual items such as the phurba as well as seen on 'parasu' (ritual axe) and 'kartttrika' (ritual chopper). I do believe however that this is an Indian sword and by the hilt, probably either Deccani or Mysori. The blade seems to be of the early khanda type, and the assessment on the date seems reasonably placed c.1800, the blade quite possibly earlier. The hilt of the sword seems characteristically 'atavistic' in line with many Indian weapons, especially those intended for ceremonial or court purposes, recalling decorative dynamics including 'Tantric' elements (as seen on the Tibetan items) as well as the typical architecturally influenced structure. The botanical theme of the lower part of the hilt recalls similar hilt guard form as seen on early Pala swords c.10th-13th century (Rawson pp.2 and 9), and the hilt overall carries subtle similarities to Indian dagger forms such as the chilanum. The hilt on this sword seems to be somewhat associated in style with a number of the forms seen in Robert Elgoods "Hindu Arms and Ritual" though certainly not necessarily by typology as much as by the symbolically structured and brass characteristic. Looks like a great acquisition!! Best regards, Jim

17th December 2006, 01:08 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Bill, Thanks very much! Also thank you for the support in furthering our study on Indian weapons, these are so incredibly under researched in most cases. The greatest advance we have had on these has been Robert Elgood's outstanding and seminal work on "Hindu Arms and Ritual". I hope future reference books discussing ethnographic weapons will follow his lead with the excellent perspective he uses so skillfully in the examination and identification of them. Interesting Tibetan items, and great story on the 'worn out' items!! Uh, I'd be happy to take a whole bunch of new shiny stuff over there to trade for all these old worn out things!!!! Thanks again, and a very Merry Christmas to you as well, Jim

17th December 2006, 07:19 AM	#8
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	The same question popped up on SFI last July. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...ight=acalantha I figured it was some type of acalantha remounted as a temple piece.

17th December 2006, 02:55 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Not only the same type of sword, it is the same sword! Look at the forging flaw at the top of the blade.

21st December 2006, 03:05 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Excellent observations Jens! I am inclined to opt for the Nepalese possibility as well, over the Tibetan. Tibetan swords typically exhibit the distinctive hairpin pattern welded blades which also preserve the ancient Sui and Tang profiles which later were carried into the familiar Japanese blades. These are also characteristic on Bhutanese swords. In Nepal, however, there was considerable diffusion of weaponry from India and other regions to the south. It would seem that numerous weapons found in these regions reflect atavistic influence from iconographic sources that may include forms from ancient Greek weapons. While the interesting pommel does reflect the Tibetan 'dorje' element, as I noted there are certain features in the structure of the hilt that recall distinct Indian influence. Most notable perhaps, would be the unusual 'skirted' form of the lower hilt, which appears in variation on numerous Mughal jade dagger hilts, and mostly of latter 17th thru the 18th c. These are of course mostly from N.India (though Mysore examples are noted) and are shown in a number of examples in Pant (p.205; #607, #609, #611). It seems entirely plausible that in Nepal, a ceremonial sword might carry influences from both Tibet, to the north, with Tantric elements as well as the aesthetics of Mughal weapons to the south. We know that the kukri was well established in India, though thought of as indiginous to Nepal, and that there are tulwar hilted koras as well as kukris. I found some interesting notes concerning swords in Bhutan, which may have some bearing on the use of ceremonial swords in Nepal in some degree as well via the influences that seem to diffuse in these regions. In "Bhutan,Land of the Thunder Dragon" by Burt Kerr Todd (National Geographic, Vol.CII, #6, Dec.1952), the author notes that "...the 'pathang' or ceremonial sword is reserved for wear in or around the dzongs (forts) that dot the countryside. Without the sword, and the appropriate shawl to show his rank, he is not permitted within these centers of Bhutanese central life". I think these factors may support a Nepalese origin for this sword, as Jens has suggested, as well as his notes on the early iconography in Nepal that depicts this ancient blade form, which is interestingly very similar to the Greek 'phasganon' (Burton, fig.254). Best regards, Jim

21st December 2006, 06:15 PM	#12
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Yes I think we got it, it must be Nepalese. Interesting that this blade type was used over a very large area. Hi Katana, You wrote about the balance, but these blades were not very thick, so the balance can have been all right, besides, if it was a ceremonial sword, I don’t think it would have mattered a lot.

22nd December 2006, 07:24 AM	#13
Joe Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: McDonough, GA Posts: 48	I'm inclined to believe you guys on your Nepalese conclusion. Does anyone have any pics showing a sword of this type with a more Nepalese mounting style? Also, working one the conclusion that the blade is Indian, could it be classified as a Pattisa blade?

22nd December 2006, 08:03 PM	#15
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Jens, I agree that this early form of sword was used throughout Indian and Nepal, and is apparant in sculpture in both medieaval, and post medieaval times. The scrulpture you mention shows this very clearly. However, I think that the langet on all od these swords held the blades via rivets. The 'bands' across the langet are decorative, and no doubt hold some purpose, possibly symbolic. If you look at Rawson (Danish versian) plate 13 and 14, these bands are clearly shown. Plate 13 has the band at the bottom of the langet, but the blade is riveted on. Rawson calls this sword 18thC, but I believe this to date at least 200 years earlier (it is called 'ancient Nepalese by Egerton). This is indeed an early Nepalese sword, and I know of one other example of this extremely rare sword in a private collection. Fig 14 is a more classically shaped 'patissa', with a band around the langet. this is more than likely loose, and so does not represent a strengthening use. There is another example in the British Museum, shown in Elgoods Hindu Arms, and another in that same private colection mentioned earlier. The band in the example in the private collection is silver and loose, and looks of the same construction as the BM and Copenhagen pieces, hence the assumptions.

23rd December 2006, 10:31 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes I agree with you that Rawson may have hinted a few hundred years later than it is, but if you go further back, I think the blades were fastened with hides. Wet hides will, when they dry, held a blade very close. Later I think they used metal, but then again it is a guess.