Ethiopian swords

[Bill M]

I just realized I accidently started a new thread. I meant to post in the recently opened ETHIOPIAN thread. Sorry.


First is a picure of my display. The shield is Ethiopian. Looks pretty neat, but I don't think it is really old. Has a "native" repair to a cut. Have seen several like this with similar "repairs." It is some kind of very thick leather.

Taureg sword with dagger at the bottom. The sword to the right is a shotel, made for getting around the enemys' shield. Must have been quite a surprise for the enemy. Actually a bit unweildy.

The sword to the left of the shield is one of my favorites. We have had a discussion here before about the hilt. Could be translucent rhino horn, some dealers think it is. Other people on the Forum think it is cow horn. Could be. I'd like it to be rhino, but won't cry if it is not.

So here are the pictures of the "Rhino Horn:"

[Lew]

Bill

The horn is beautiful but it's not rhino I have a sword with a darker hilt and when I compared it to a rhino horn jambiya I can see the difference. Rhino horn has this dot matrix at the end piece it looks like if you took a bunch of dry spaghetti in your hand and was looking down at one end of it.

I'll see if I can get a picture of what I am talking about. Here is a link that shows the matrix.

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-witm...rhino_horn.htm


Lew

[RSWORD]

A good way to determine if it is rhino horn or not is to moisten your hand and grab the hilt and see if it feels sticky. If it does, it is rhino horn. This is why it was popular has a handle material. When your hands got sweaty they would not slip off because of the sticky nature of rhino horn. Bovine horn would not be sticky at all. Rhino horn comes in a variety of shades and the lighter coloration is not a concern. Let us know if it is sticky. I'll bet it is.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Bill

The horn is beautiful but it's not rhino I have a sword with a darker hilt and when I compared it to a rhino horn jambiya I can see the difference. Rhino horn has this dot matrix at the end piece it looks like if you took a bunch of dry spaghetti in your hand and was looking down at one end of it.

I'll see if I can get a picture of what I am talking about. Here is a link that shows the matrix.

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-witm...rhino_horn.htm


Lew

Lew,

Thank you for your info and link. I believe that you are right. There is a difference in your microscopic picture.

I love learning and am always happy to know more even if the hilt is not what I would like it to be. I would rather learn than hold incorrect knowlege and opinions.

Like you say, it is beautiful. What do you think it might be? Cow horn?

What about the blade?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

A good way to determine if it is rhino horn or not is to moisten your hand and grab the hilt and see if it feels sticky. If it does, it is rhino horn. This is why it was popular has a handle material. When your hands got sweaty they would not slip off because of the sticky nature of rhino horn. Bovine horn would not be sticky at all. Rhino horn comes in a variety of shades and the lighter coloration is not a concern. Let us know if it is sticky. I'll bet it is.

uh, oh, it is sticky. I tried moistening my hands and holding the hilt and it was definetely more sticky than the Pira with the horn handle or the horn handle khukuri. The horn on those was noticeably more sllippery. Don't have more pieces with known cow horn.

Any other tests?

I can see how a sticky sword handle would be a good idea if you got sweat and/or blood on it.

What about the translucency of it?

Guys, half the fun of collecting is showing pictures and pieces to friends.

Please look me up in Atlanta if any of you are ever visiting. I'd like to get your opinions.

And if you have questions on a particular piece, it is simple to get it down and take a few pix. I have a small studio permenantly set up, so this is easy.

I like to learn and have good freinds. Is this a great world or what?

[Yannis]

IMO it is rhino horn. As we have said before this material can take different colors, from light honey to almost black. The lighter the color, the more translucent the piece. Also it could be cut in different styles. In this hilt the grip is vertical (like |||) and the pommel is horizontal (like =). So to see the dots (the end of the hair) look the pommel in angle.

[Bill M]

will try to get an end view. not easy. Using strong backlighting. Picked up a little lens flare.

Trying to see what Lew means in his post rgarding the"horn Tubules" and "intertubular matrix." The names alone are worth a look! I think that the magnification they use in the article is beyond my camera's abilities.

Lew's link:
http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-witm...rhino_horn.htm

So for this and other reasons I am looking at microscope cameras on eBay! Hah! An excuse to buy more toys!

[Yannis]

Last pictures are very good and they add to rhino source. I think I can see at the top edge of the pommel the little dots. Imagine a packet of spaghetti. If you look it from one angle it looks like a bunch of wires. If you look from top angle it looks like a collection of rings.

Look there, between black lines.

[Lew]

Bill

I have two pieces in my collection one is the sword I posted the other is an Afar dagger with the same type of horn hilt it has both light and dark horn on it composite three separate pieces. I compared it to my rhino horn jambiya and I did the wet hand test. The hilt felt smooth to me the rhino horn jambiya on the other hand was a bit tacky. This is due to the matrix described earlier. I tried it again on the smooth part of the rhino hilt where there was no cross section of the fibers and it was smooth feeling? So maybe the sticky feeling is due do the cross section cutting the horn against the grain rather than with the grain? I also noticed that rhino horn when seen as against the grain looks like what you would see on the surface of an orange peel. Also that hole in the bottom piece of your sword is just like many I have seen on this type of sword including mine. Lastly considering there were probably tens of thousands of these swords made over the years the hilts would have to have been made from a more accessible and plentiful source such as cattle horn there just was not enough rhinos around to fill the bill.

Lew

[roanoa]

Sorry, Yannis. Gonna bet you a bottle of Uzo it's not rhino. I have quite a few swords with rhino hilts and a some with "cow" hilts. The difference is obvious when you see them side by side.

[Bill M]

Hi Lew and Roanoa,

I'll take the uzo and not care whether it is cow or rhino!

Will try to get a picture of the end grain.

maybe there were not a lot of rhinos around, but this swords seems really top knotch and maybe the owner splurged on rhino?

Maybe I need to bring it to Timonium when we meet again and let you have a 'hands-on' test?

[Flavio]

Rhino or not, it's beautiful!!!

[Lew]

Bill

Here are two photos from Artzi's website. Notice it is one piece and you can see the matrix of the horn. When you compare it to yours you can see there is a definate difference between the two hilts.

Lew

[Yannis]

Well, I do not insist. I checked my rhino horns and their fiber structure is obvious than this.

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Lastly considering there were probably tens of thousands of these swords made over the years the hilts would have to have been made from a more accessible and plentiful source such as cattle horn there just was not enough rhinos around to fill the bill.
Lew

They were thousands of Rhinoceros that died the last 200 years mainly because their horns were demanded for sword and dagger hilts. The species threatened with extinction for this reason. And every horn makes lot of hilts. But we do not see so often antique rhino hilt in the market. They are rather rare.

As for the ouzo, you are all welcome for a drink with me, but I prefer raki.

[Tim Simmons]

The Rhino horn I have is like the picture that Lew has post. The horn is dense and fibrous so as to not let light into the material. Also it can very nearly look like wood as opposed to horn.

[roanoa]

About 100 years ago, in East Africa, rhino were so numerous that they were killed by the thousands every year. And I mean MANY thousands!!! Quality of the blade has little to do with the quality of the hilt. I have seen rhino horn hilts on very poor blades, and vice-versa.

[Lew]

Originally Posted by roanoa

About 100 years ago, in East Africa, rhino were so numerous that they were killed by the thousands every year. And I mean MANY thousands!!! Quality of the blade has little to do with the quality of the hilt. I have seen rhino horn hilts on very poor blades, and vice-versa.

Just a note:

During the last century, the Black Rhino has suffered the most drastic decline in total numbers of all rhino species. Between 1970 and 1992, the population of this species decreased 96%. In 1970, it was estimated that there were approximately 65,000 Black Rhinos in Africa but by 1992-93, there were only 2,300 surviving in the wild. However, since 1996, the intense anti-poaching efforts have had encouraging results. Numbers have been recovering and are now back up to about 3,610 and still increasing. Each species probably numbered white and black rhino combined 200,000 during the 19th century I don't think more than a few thousand were hunted each year. They were not as plentiful as the American bison which numbered in the millions up until the 1870s. I still say most of the horn is from various types of cattle and some from rhino and still some were wood and bakelite. I say only the wealthy would have rhino used as hilts as a status symbol.

Lew

[roanoa]

Bill, love your display. Very nice. I know, virtually all Arussi shields have repaired spear cuts (at least that's what I think they are...). Gorgeous pieces anyways.
Lew, we are not 100% in tune. Certainly the vast majority of rhino hilts are found on quality blades, but not always. I posted 3 Oromo/Galla swords; the blades are of similar quality (poor..). Two of them have cheap wooden handles and one has a NICE rhino grip. I have a couple of cheap Ethiopian blades with rhino grip. On the other hand, I just saw a nice picture of Ras Seyum (circa 1930) all dressed up. The sword he is wearing has "cow" grip. He certainly could afford a more expensive one. And again, when rhino was still plentiful, the Abyssinian fell in love with bakelite and "plastic" grips.... Ah, the joys of collecting!!
Keep up the good work, guys. I really want to see what's out there. I myself will keep on posting.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by roanoa

Bill, love your display. Very nice. I know, virtually all Arussi shields have repaired spear cuts (at least that's what I think they are...). Gorgeous pieces anyways.

Thanks Roanoa,

Here is an overall picture of that wall. I will also post pictures of a Shotel and a cavalry sabre, and I will get them in your thread.

[Bill M]

I am posting some more pictures of my hilt in the hopes that it will settle the debate as to whether it is cow or rhino.

I hope that the hole in the hilt when seen from the blade will help. it is filled with wax.

Then I would like to post in the thread with the properly spelled Ethiopia

Comments

[roanoa]

Bill. First: you have a gorgeous room. Love it. Second: I do not believe thios argument will ever be settled... As far as my opinion is concerned, I BELIEVE it's cattle horn. I am sure some of the members of this Forum will disagree. If you want an EXPERT opinion, you'll have to go to a Forensic Laboratory.... It's of course academic as the bottom line is: it's a lovely sword!! Got some more?

[Lew]

Bill

I can't see any of the fiberous structure that is present in rhino horn so I agree with Roanoa that it is cattle horn. If you are disappointed I can understand but it is still a beauty. If you want you can send to me you know it would have a good home

Lew

[Bill M]

Have no idea. Doesn't bother me either way. I like it. And I appreciate your comments.

Where is my Ouzo? Did drink a bit of it once and had a VERY weird high. but I like Anise.

I will post another sword in the ETHIOPIAN thread.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I will post another sword in the ETHIOPIAN thread.

[Lew]

Here is one that I have had for a while now I think it is Afar tribe with two tone hilt? (a Gile knife?)


Lew

[Bill M]

Nice knife, Lew. Would like to see some close-ups of the hilt.

Perhaps you could post them in the other Ethiopian thread? I'd like to see it supported and let this one die down.

Ron and others have some very interesting pieces there. Trying not to split the energy. My thread here was an accident. I meant it to be a reply to Ron's thread, but somehow started a new thread accidently. Do't know how I managed that. Will be more careful in the future.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/dbms-witm...rhino_horn.htm

Lew

Excellent reference Lew. Great article to download and keep on file.

Ian.

[Bill M]

Rhino Horn?