Crucible steel in Malela keris

[adamb]

Is anyone willing to venture an opinion on the swirly pattern evident in this Malela keris? Is this crucible steel, unlikely as the prospect of a wootz keris blade might seem?

[Interested Party]

I am no expert. My thoughts are maybe?, but I would think a high layer count mechanical damascus would be much more likely. Something similar to what the sides of high-end Japanese are constructed of. Either way I like it!

Can you see a temper line anywhere in the straight section?

[A. G. Maisey]

That is a very astute observation, IP.

Very.

Well done.

That thought never crossed my mind, but it should have.

Here is are two photos of something I made, it has over 4000 nominal layers in it, no nickel, only wrought iron & 01(oil hardening steel #1). Both sides are shown. A three stack was folded & welded 12 times. It has been heat treated, oil quench, double draw.

This was stained with ferric chloride once, & has not been touched since. No etching, no repeat washings with acid, such as is done with a keris.

Imagine what this tight layering would have done to my blade if it had been treated like a keris.

Yes, I do believe that the answer is multiple folding & welding; probably made necessary because the material from which it is made required a lot of washing --- "washing" = folding and welding in the forge to remove impurities prior to forging into a billet that can then be forged to shape prior to cold work taking place.

I've played with the photo a bit so that the grain in the metal can be seen, it is a handheld snapshot, it might be seen better if I had photographed it in a different way.

[jagabuwana]

Hello, Adam - nice keris! Thank you for sharing.

Hello, Alan:

- From what you and IP have said, it seems like the effect on Adam's keris could be produced by arranging the layers as you would for pamor wos wutah, but folding many more times to create a denser pamor which might look like wootz. Am I understanding correctly? If so, would this still be called pamor urab urab as opposed to wos wutah, or does pamor UU refer specifically to something with wootz construct?

- If this keris were in your hand, how would you identify whether it is crucible or forge welded?

- From previous discussions in this forum I've gathered that a whole-wootz keris is exceedingly rare. But if they were more common, would you be any more inclined to think that this is made of crucible steel?

- To my eye this keris appears have no slorok. If I'm right is that a relevant factor in this discussion?

[A. G. Maisey]

Jaga, this keris has no pamor, it is all from the same material, it has no core.

Don't forget that before ferric material is mixed with nickel bearing material, that ferric material needs to be washed, so what we're looking at in this blade is, I think, material that was so dirty to begin with that it needed a very large number of weld heats to get it clean. I believe that it is extremely unlikely that the maker intended it to finish up looking like it does, but he just had to keep on folding & welding to get it clean enough to use.

What I've found is that even with poor quality wrought iron, it normally comes clean after about 6 or 8 times folded & welded. When it is clean then you can add the nickel & weld & fold some more.

I've only ever seen one example of pamor urab-urab, & I do not know what the material was, it might have been like this keris, it might have been wootz, but I would never be able to identify wootz positively from a photo, I'd need to handle it, & even then I could be wrong.

As to how I would ID anything at all, the answer is pretty much always going to be "more than 70 years of experience", that & the fact that I've gotten my hands dirty along the way. But seriously, simply by looking , examining the nature of the material & following the grain.

I do not know if a keris made entirely of wootz ever existed. I know that at least one gonjo did, but a whole keris? Doubt it.

Yeah, it has no core, but all that does is tell us that it cannot have any pamor either.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I am no expert. My thoughts are maybe?, but I would think a high layer count mechanical damascus would be much more likely. Something similar to what the sides of high-end Japanese are constructed of. Either way I like it!

Can you see a temper line anywhere in the straight section?

Thank you IP; I cannot see a visible temper line in the straight section (more pics attached)

[A. G. Maisey]

Adam, what you are looking for is a "quench" line, not a temper line, it indicates the point at which the quench might have stopped, it is a change in colour of the material, but it can disappear after a blade is polished. It does not need to be a straight line, it can be a graduated area.

I've put a couple of arrows onto one of your pics, these arrows DO NOT indicate where I believe a quench line is, they indicate points that can look similar to the area where a quench line might be, & they are in places where a quench line might be expected to be found.

Then again, it is entirely possible that the maker did not wish to heat treat the blade, many decorative, very expensive, modern custom knives do not get a heat treat also. And for the same reason:- if the blade has been made as a work of art & not for intended use, then why risk damage to the blade by bringing it up to critical & plunging it into a quench?

[Tatyana Dianova]

I have a Palembang Keris which has a Wootz blade, made most probably from an imported Indian ingot. The Wootz pattern is unmistakable and it is similar to Indian Katar blades. There is even a characteristic crack, a technological feature originating from Wootz ingot structure.
Wrangan doesn't bring out a Wootz pattern according to a person who makes Warangi on a regular basis. Maybe this a reason why we see Keris with Wootz pattern so seldom.

[A. G. Maisey]

First I've seen like that Tatyana. Thank you.

Yes, I think Sumatera would be more likely --- maybe much more likely --- to have had blades made of wootz than Jawa.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Adam, what you are looking for is a "quench" line, not a temper line, it indicates the point at which the quench might have stopped, it is a change in colour of the material, but it can disappear after a blade is polished. It does not need to be a straight line, it can be a graduated area.

Then again, it is entirely possible that the maker did not wish to heat treat the blade, many decorative, very expensive, modern custom knives do not get a heat treat also.

Quench line is a better and more accurate way of expressing the idea.

I didn't know that about modern art knives. Makes sense but I feel that I lost some innocence.

Adam, Alan, and Tatyana thank you for showing us these blades. I really enjoyed all the fuller work.

[Tatyana Dianova]

Alan, that is what I heard too - there are Malay and Sumatra Keris made of Wootz steel, but none from Java or Bali.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes IP, true.

What we see & believe when we're on the outside looking in is very often a lot different to what we find the truth to be when we're on the inside, looking out.

It can be pretty disillusioning sometimes.

Going back into the late 1970's through to the 1980's the situation with forge welding & the associated craft of pattern welding was in the process of being reborn in USA & other places. A lot of custom knife makers, & others, wanted to jump onto the wagon and find out how it was done. Forge welded & pattern welded knives were the new thing. We were all going to become millionaires.

Bill Moran :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willia...an_(knifemaker)
led the way, but a lot of us followed.

In those early days there was at least one WannaBe in the USA who found a quite skillful way in which to flim-flam the dreaming masses who wanted a beautiful pattern welded knife.

What he did was to make small pieces of pattern welded material, & then affix those pieces of pattern weld to a mild steel core in a mosaic pattern with good quality adhesive.

It is possible that some of the individual little pieces of "pattern weld" were also constructed with the help of adhesive.

Correction
I have just been advised that at least one of the people who made "pattern welded" knives in USA with adhesive --- maybe even the one I was thinking of --- did in fact use good, high carbon, heat treated steel for the core on at least some occasions.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah, that makes sense Tatyana.

But to me, it seems a bit silly to make a keris blade from wootz.

The big positive quality of wootz is supposedly its superior cutting quality, but this is balanced by its inferior ductility --- apart from which it is not easy to work with.

A keris is a weapon of thrust, & it needs to be able to withstand side forces.

If wootz was used for keris in Sumatera, & this does seem to be the case, maybe it was because of a shortage of other more suitable materials.

Sumatera seemed to have better trade ties with India, Jawa had better trade ties with China. Most ferric material coming into Jawa was from China.

But then there is the fact that China imported wootz from India & exported Chinese steel to India. Maybe that wootz did originate in Sri Lanka or South India, but it got to Sumatera by way of China.

One thing is dead certain:- that wootz material used in Sumatera was not made in Sumatera.

[jagabuwana]

Alan - got it, thank you for patiently answering my questions. But there is something I still don't understand because my metalworking knowledge is poor. Why could it not, or why should it not have a steel core if it is made of a homogenous material?

~~

Tatyana - these are the clearest photos of a full keris made of wootz that I have seen. Thank you for sharing this!

Both you and Alan raise good points that might support why wootz keris are rare:

1. No contrasting pamor. Given how much importance is given to pamor especially in in Jawa-Bali, it wouldn't make sense to use wootz.
2. Its mechanical properties are not well matched to what a keris needs.
3. It is not easy to work with.

So then why was wootz ever used at all? Alan has suggested that it might be due to a shortage of the usual materials available.

I'll speculate on another reason. Imported wootz originated from places that were known to have better forge technologies and better iron. Wootz then may have taken on the reputation of being the "better" quality steel, perhaps more expensive than local stuff, and so had a prestige associated with it. I have put better in inverted commas here on purpose seeing as one must always ask "better for what?". But I'm referring to perception of quality and prestige here. Admittedly I'm hingeing all my speculation on a particular translation of "malela" that was given by Dr Alex West in his thesis on the Bujangga Manik Sundanese manuscript which I've asked about in a separate thread - https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=279782.

[adamb]

Thanks to everyone for their opinions on this subject.

On the subject of this keris, any insight into its origin and age?

My feeling is Malay States, possibly Terengganu, but I've been chatting privately with another forum member who thinks possibly west Java or Palembang

[adamb]

more images

[jagabuwana]

I'll go first, though ultimately these are guesses and inclinations.

I lean Java or Java-adjacent. The ron dha looks very Javanese. The beefiness and full ricikan are reminiscent of Banten to me as are the aggressive luk. Though the last long luk seems to me to be out of place on a Banten and might suggest something later in period. Because it's something that presents mostly Javanese-ish to my eyes but raises some doubt about whether it is squarely and truly Javanese, in this case I am usually led to Palembang which is a melting pot of indicators and styles.

[Green]

Imo most certainly not Java. This keris is a malela form from the east coast of Malaysia. Probably Kelantan or Terengganu. The 'akut' or belalai gajah (the term used over here ) is broken. Very nice keris.Congrats! I would have bid it myself if it was not for that broken akut.

[A. G. Maisey]

"Why could it not, or why should it not have a steel core if it is made of a homogenous material?"

Long answer short:- once a blade is made from two or more materials that do not share a common origin, it is no longer homogenous.
In respect of the Dr. West reference, there are a lot of questions there that I cannot find answers for.

Here is the long answer that will send you to sleep.

Jaga, the word "homogenous" is a difficult word. In the English language as it is spoken in Australia we can understand it as meaning that a material has a particular structure because the parts of that structure are of a common origin (I believe that this definition would stand in a court of law).

So, if a keris has an homogenous structure, that means that all parts of the keris must have a common origin.

Pamor can exist only because the structure of the pamor is comprised of parts that are not of a common origin, thus they contrast with one another.

Once the pamor goes onto that steel core, the keris no longer has an homogenous structure.

There is a type of pamor that has very low contrast, because it is made of non-contrasting material, but even that pamor is differentiated by the addition of the word "sanak". ie, "pamor sanak". In Javanese "sanak" means "related", thus, NOT of a COMMON origin, but of a RELATED origin.

Then we have the matter of the steel core. If a steel core is incorporated into blade structure, then that blade cannot be referred to as "homogenous".

But why would anybody want to put a steel core into a blade that has been made from steel? Wootz is steel, not iron.

In the above I have used the word "keris" in its strict sense as referring to only the blade, in its originating culture, once a keris blade is dressed it should really be referred to by other words.

In respect of Modern Javanese the word "malela" simply means "black iron", but it can also be understood as meaning black sand or reflective black ground.

In Old Javanese, "malela" is a bare reference to a pedang blade, Zoetmulder does not give a BI equivalent.

"Malela" is not found in BI, nor in Malay, it is found in Basa Bali where it can be understood as "steel", apparently Raffles also understood it as steel. That was Jawa first quarter 19th century.

It appears to exist in Sundanese, but it also appears to have an entirely unrelated meaning in this language.

I would be very much interested in trying to understand why Dr. West deduced that the word "malela" referred specifically to wootz.

[Pendita65]

Hi All,

interesting discussion here, and as a novice i would like to know what is a broken akut?

Regards, Martin

[A. G. Maisey]

The kembang kacang is broken, so I'm guessing that an akut is what is called a kembang kacang in Jawa.

It is a pity that it is not perfect, but something like this in Jawa/Bali is normally given to a m'ranggi or pande keris/mpu to reshape. This part of a keris is pretty frequently damaged, especially so in older keris.

[Pendita65]

Thank you so much for explaining Mr. Maisey.

Regards, Martin