Here is my other hunting sword

mgolab · 24th July 2025, 05:24 PM

My other hunting sword..."1414" on blade. I have seen the prior posts about such numbers.

mgolab · 24th July 2025, 05:51 PM

As a follow up, I think that this may be a German hunting sword, 18th century. I am interested in hearing any comments about the lion on the bottom of the hilt, whether this may indicate a certain ruler and/or military issued item.

Thanks

urbanspaceman · 24th July 2025, 08:37 PM

Hey Jim, are you watching? There's that fox again.
With reference to the history of this sword, I suspect this is a second generation grip. The cap and the peen are indicative of a previous antler grip as per tradition. Nicely done though. Can you tell what it is made of? The shell looks suspicious too. Could this be a complete re-hilting of the blade? Is it usual to see the talismanic numerals on hunting swords?

mgolab · 24th July 2025, 08:55 PM

if you google "anspach jager sword 18th century" a similar well documented example appears

mgolab · 24th July 2025, 09:06 PM

see this

http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12928.html

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2025, 10:02 PM

Thanks for the link to 'my armoury'...good ole days!

Steyr was an Austrian arms center, it seems mostly for guns, but this obscure entry in Gardner ("Small Arms Makers", 1963) shows this curious RUNNING FOX? as opposed to the chop mark Passau running wolf. It is suggests 1620 period, but without name etc hard to say when or how long this mark was used.

The 1414 is a gemetria oriented 'magic' number combination which seems to have been the most popular, though 1441, and 1515 and some others are known.
Note the fact that the numbers are placed upside down from the orientation of the animal, exactly in the convention used in Solingen with the running wolf. It is unclear why this was done, and if any weapons were from Passau using the wolf and this. While it is called the Passau wolf, I have yet to see a weapon FROM Passau bearing this familiar mark.

The character of this cuttoe is French, probably mid 18th c. by the style of the scallop shell, and again curious to know more on this running fox device which seems to have eluded most of the compendiums on markings as well as how the date of 1620 was arrived at. Even the similar use of this type figure in Shotley Bridge was not until the last part of the 17th into early 18th.

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2025, 09:54 PM

Regarding the lion on the pommel, doubtful this has any particular value as far as any regal association or military order or unit etc. The lion was of course a ubiquitous figure in heraldry and its devices throughout history. The only way to isolate this instance would be some long poring through heraldry references to find similar renderings.

More likely a metaphoric reference to courage (i.e.heart of a lion etc) or in such manner.

Hotspur · Today, 02:01 AM

Great stuff guys.

Is there a cut off date for the use of the 1414 and 1515 stuff? Other cabalistic traits continue, without these numbers.

I have just one of the eastern European profile but I feel it is petty late in the 18th century.

Cheers
GC

Jim McDougall · Today, 04:40 AM

Good question. I think it went through the 18th pretty well, as these magical conventions kept being applied on blades quite late. Batches of blades with cabalistic numbers, sigils etc. were known as late as 1790s on European swords, many being used in England as well.

Think you're right on the nice example you show. Looks like a weapon in keeping with Pandour features, including the clipped point which Seifert (1962) refers to as a 'Pandour point'. The Pandours were auxiliaries for Maria Theresa forces mid 18th c. who dressed in oriental fashions, styles like long mustaches, scalplocks and fearsome demeanor with oriental (Ottoman etc) type weapons. They became so renegade they were disbanded, but they were quite effective and their character was widely copied in some European armies. This is where the blade decoration 'VIVAT PANDUR' comes in later in the century.

Triarii · Today, 01:25 PM

There's an interesting vid on FB somewhere where a guy puts forward some theories on the 1414 and 1441, including whether they're references to biblical verses, such as Psalm 144:1, which states, "Blessed be the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle" or the number 4 has significance through eg Ezekial 1:10 which talks about the four faces of God.
Although he says its impossible to come up with a definitive answer, he makes - IMHO - a good point about the Roscrucians who appear in the very early C17th, which is when these numbers seem to appear.
There was a diagram in one of their works which featured the numbers arranged in a square such that that they could be read as 1441 or 1414. Now I have to go and find the vid again.

PS if the numbers are linked to the Rosicrucians, then interest in them reoccurs throughout the C17th and into the late C18th, when they're tied up with the Freemasons.

urbanspaceman · Today, 09:10 PM

This is a very important thread re. talismanic numbers. It appears no-one has fully plumbed these depths. Jim, you were the first person I encountered who suggested talismanic sigils and numerology etc. I know a lot about the so called esoteric so it has never surprised me that, when going into a life and death situation, every little helps. I hope there is more to come Chaps, keep up the good work.

24th July 2025, 05:24 PM	#1
mgolab Member Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 94	Here is my other hunting sword My other hunting sword..."1414" on blade. I have seen the prior posts about such numbers. Attached Images

24th July 2025, 08:37 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 682	Fox Hey Jim, are you watching? There's that fox again. With reference to the history of this sword, I suspect this is a second generation grip. The cap and the peen are indicative of a previous antler grip as per tradition. Nicely done though. Can you tell what it is made of? The shell looks suspicious too. Could this be a complete re-hilting of the blade? Is it usual to see the talismanic numerals on hunting swords? Last edited by urbanspaceman; 24th July 2025 at 08:39 PM. Reason: second thoughts

24th July 2025, 10:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,445	Thanks for the link to 'my armoury'...good ole days! Steyr was an Austrian arms center, it seems mostly for guns, but this obscure entry in Gardner ("Small Arms Makers", 1963) shows this curious RUNNING FOX? as opposed to the chop mark Passau running wolf. It is suggests 1620 period, but without name etc hard to say when or how long this mark was used. The 1414 is a gemetria oriented 'magic' number combination which seems to have been the most popular, though 1441, and 1515 and some others are known. Note the fact that the numbers are placed upside down from the orientation of the animal, exactly in the convention used in Solingen with the running wolf. It is unclear why this was done, and if any weapons were from Passau using the wolf and this. While it is called the Passau wolf, I have yet to see a weapon FROM Passau bearing this familiar mark. The character of this cuttoe is French, probably mid 18th c. by the style of the scallop shell, and again curious to know more on this running fox device which seems to have eluded most of the compendiums on markings as well as how the date of 1620 was arrived at. Even the similar use of this type figure in Shotley Bridge was not until the last part of the 17th into early 18th. Attached Images

Today, 02:01 AM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 521	Great stuff guys. Is there a cut off date for the use of the 1414 and 1515 stuff? Other cabalistic traits continue, without these numbers. I have just one of the eastern European profile but I feel it is petty late in the 18th century. Cheers GC Attached Images

Today, 09:10 PM	#11
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 682	numbers This is a very important thread re. talismanic numbers. It appears no-one has fully plumbed these depths. Jim, you were the first person I encountered who suggested talismanic sigils and numerology etc. I know a lot about the so called esoteric so it has never surprised me that, when going into a life and death situation, every little helps. I hope there is more to come Chaps, keep up the good work.

24th July 2025, 05:51 PM	#2
mgolab Member Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 94	As a follow up, I think that this may be a German hunting sword, 18th century. I am interested in hearing any comments about the lion on the bottom of the hilt, whether this may indicate a certain ruler and/or military issued item. Thanks

24th July 2025, 08:55 PM	#4
mgolab Member Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 94	if you google "anspach jager sword 18th century" a similar well documented example appears

24th July 2025, 09:06 PM	#5
mgolab Member Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 94	see this http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.12928.html

25th July 2025, 09:54 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,445	Regarding the lion on the pommel, doubtful this has any particular value as far as any regal association or military order or unit etc. The lion was of course a ubiquitous figure in heraldry and its devices throughout history. The only way to isolate this instance would be some long poring through heraldry references to find similar renderings. More likely a metaphoric reference to courage (i.e.heart of a lion etc) or in such manner.

Today, 04:40 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,445	Good question. I think it went through the 18th pretty well, as these magical conventions kept being applied on blades quite late. Batches of blades with cabalistic numbers, sigils etc. were known as late as 1790s on European swords, many being used in England as well. Think you're right on the nice example you show. Looks like a weapon in keeping with Pandour features, including the clipped point which Seifert (1962) refers to as a 'Pandour point'. The Pandours were auxiliaries for Maria Theresa forces mid 18th c. who dressed in oriental fashions, styles like long mustaches, scalplocks and fearsome demeanor with oriental (Ottoman etc) type weapons. They became so renegade they were disbanded, but they were quite effective and their character was widely copied in some European armies. This is where the blade decoration 'VIVAT PANDUR' comes in later in the century.

Today, 01:25 PM	#10
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 136	There's an interesting vid on FB somewhere where a guy puts forward some theories on the 1414 and 1441, including whether they're references to biblical verses, such as Psalm 144:1, which states, "Blessed be the Lord, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle" or the number 4 has significance through eg Ezekial 1:10 which talks about the four faces of God. Although he says its impossible to come up with a definitive answer, he makes - IMHO - a good point about the Roscrucians who appear in the very early C17th, which is when these numbers seem to appear. There was a diagram in one of their works which featured the numbers arranged in a square such that that they could be read as 1441 or 1414. Now I have to go and find the vid again. PS if the numbers are linked to the Rosicrucians, then interest in them reoccurs throughout the C17th and into the late C18th, when they're tied up with the Freemasons.