Bali keris

SidJ · 22nd July 2025, 05:25 PM

An old Bali kris. I think it's 19th century from the vibes of the thing but open to thoughts. 44cm blade. Is the pamor wos wutah?

David · 23rd July 2025, 03:50 PM

Yes, looks to be 19thC with Wos Wutah. The cekah solas (assumption since i can't quite count the cuts to know if they add up to 11) hilt is, of course, backwards and needs to be turned 180 degrees. Does it have a uwer? I can't tell because of the string from the tag. Has and old original Bali stain, which despite the worn out areas i would not personally restain.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd July 2025, 11:15 PM

I'm not so sure that this pamor is wos wutah --- or, as they refer to it in Bali "wusing wutah". There are a number of variations within the wos wutah classification, & this particular pamor that Sid has shown us does not fit any of them, except in the sorsoran.

If we look at the grain of the contrasting material, it starts as a simple, rather fine, random pamor, that if it continued thus for the length of the blade would probably fall within a wos wutah classification, however, in this blade that does not happen, in this blade the pamor grain runs at an angle across the blade after it leaves the sorsoran, indicating that the material was twisted before forging to final shape.

I believe that if I handled this keris I would be looking for a different name for the pamor rather than "wos wutah". From the photos I'm not certain what I would name it as, but I think the selection of name would be from:-

tambang(an) badung or lilit or buntel mayat or kupu tarung.

As to age of this keris (blade only), I feel that in the hand I might be inclined to date it as pre-1800.

In respect of restoration, I'm with David:- do not restain. My personal approach to a blade in a condition such as this one, is to work over it under magnification & pick the rust out of the pores & pits in the metal with a saddlers awl. I do not attempt to do this in one sitting, it is too hard on the eyes and too difficult to maintain concentration, I can manage about an hour or maybe only 40 minutes, at a time, I work using a jewellers loupe and strong light source. For me, this job can last for months, just doing a little bit every day that I can.

In any case, it is a nice old keris.

SidJ · Yesterday, 09:08 PM

Thanks both for your thoughts. I am grateful. Re the hilt some numbnuts has glued it on backwards with the finest epoxy in the world. Its barely moving despite 15 mins of gentle heating. I will keep trying but it's an absolute mongrel of a job Got blisters on my fingers trying to shift it.

A. G. Maisey · Yesterday, 11:18 PM

Sid, if that hilt has been put on with Araldite or something similar it needs to get above 80C (176F) before it loses bond strength.

Gentle heat will do nothing at all.

I usually use a propane torch & play the flame over the sorsoran of the blade, I hold the blade with my bare hand a few inches further towards the point, & when the blade gets too hot to hold I take the torch away & hold the blade point down until the blade gets cool enough to hold again.

Shock!!

Horror!!!

I can hear a lot of people screaming at what a barbarian I am.

Thing is this:- keris blades are only heat treated for the first few inches of the blade, just the point and a bit behind it, occasionally I have found a blade that has been hardened back as far as the point of the sogokan, but never into the sosoran. Some keris blades are not truly hardened at all, particularly blades with complex pamor miring.

To draw a temper in steel treated for cutting wood --- or pushing into a human body --- you need to get into the blue range of temperatures, a bit like the guide used for sharpening chisels on a grinding wheel:- when you begin to see the blue coming into the blade you immediately dip your chisel into the water you have alongside the grinding wheel. But the heat treat for a keris blade does not include a draw, it is just hardened, & the residual heat above the quench bleeds back into the hardened section that has been created by the sepuhan and draws it down a little bit.

With a keris you normally cannot read the colour of the steel, because the steel needs to be white to start with and a keris is either stained or dirty, but if you keep the steel temperature below the level at which it loses a working edge you will not ever do any damage.

Here is a link to a good colour guide:-

https://www.servicesteel.org/resourc...mpering-colors

heating a keris blade you cannot use colour, but this guide demonstrates just how hot you need to get heat treated steel for it to lose the temper. But as I have written, with a keris, most of the blade is not hard to begin with, & up around the sorsoran there is no temper to lose.

I suggest that you lose the gentle approach & be brave, use common sense & you will do no damage. It truly is a very easy job to remove a hilt, once you understand the process. If you fail the first time, just put the blade aside & try again after it has completely cooled down. It might be necessary to repeat the heat/cool process a few times, doing this the miniscule expansion/contraction weakens the bond & it can usually be removed easily.

Just one gentle word of warning:- some hilts are held very firmly in place with rust, if you suspect that the problem is rust, you need to back off on excess strength unless you are prepared to repair the tang if it breaks, & that repair is really not a job for an amateur.

SidJ · Today, 12:30 AM

Thanks Alan,
I had it over a gas stove flame and held it in the way you suggest. I will try again tomorrow. Yes I think its Araldite used liberally. I can't let it win.

A. G. Maisey · Today, 03:04 AM

It might be a little bit difficult to get the heat exactly where you want it with a gas stove, Sid. In Jawa I use a candle --- I use a candle in Oz too, if i run out of gas.

A candle flame is dirty, but it cleans off easily with turps --- ie, mineral turpentine.

22nd July 2025, 05:25 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 210	Bali keris An old Bali kris. I think it's 19th century from the vibes of the thing but open to thoughts. 44cm blade. Is the pamor wos wutah? Attached Images

23rd July 2025, 03:50 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,227	Yes, looks to be 19thC with Wos Wutah. The cekah solas (assumption since i can't quite count the cuts to know if they add up to 11) hilt is, of course, backwards and needs to be turned 180 degrees. Does it have a uwer? I can't tell because of the string from the tag. Has and old original Bali stain, which despite the worn out areas i would not personally restain.

23rd July 2025, 11:15 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,042	I'm not so sure that this pamor is wos wutah --- or, as they refer to it in Bali "wusing wutah". There are a number of variations within the wos wutah classification, & this particular pamor that Sid has shown us does not fit any of them, except in the sorsoran. If we look at the grain of the contrasting material, it starts as a simple, rather fine, random pamor, that if it continued thus for the length of the blade would probably fall within a wos wutah classification, however, in this blade that does not happen, in this blade the pamor grain runs at an angle across the blade after it leaves the sorsoran, indicating that the material was twisted before forging to final shape. I believe that if I handled this keris I would be looking for a different name for the pamor rather than "wos wutah". From the photos I'm not certain what I would name it as, but I think the selection of name would be from:- tambang(an) badung or lilit or buntel mayat or kupu tarung. As to age of this keris (blade only), I feel that in the hand I might be inclined to date it as pre-1800. In respect of restoration, I'm with David:- do not restain. My personal approach to a blade in a condition such as this one, is to work over it under magnification & pick the rust out of the pores & pits in the metal with a saddlers awl. I do not attempt to do this in one sitting, it is too hard on the eyes and too difficult to maintain concentration, I can manage about an hour or maybe only 40 minutes, at a time, I work using a jewellers loupe and strong light source. For me, this job can last for months, just doing a little bit every day that I can. In any case, it is a nice old keris.

Yesterday, 09:08 PM	#4
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 210	Thanks both for your thoughts. I am grateful. Re the hilt some numbnuts has glued it on backwards with the finest epoxy in the world. Its barely moving despite 15 mins of gentle heating. I will keep trying but it's an absolute mongrel of a job Got blisters on my fingers trying to shift it.

Yesterday, 11:18 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,042	Sid, if that hilt has been put on with Araldite or something similar it needs to get above 80C (176F) before it loses bond strength. Gentle heat will do nothing at all. I usually use a propane torch & play the flame over the sorsoran of the blade, I hold the blade with my bare hand a few inches further towards the point, & when the blade gets too hot to hold I take the torch away & hold the blade point down until the blade gets cool enough to hold again. Shock!! Horror!!! I can hear a lot of people screaming at what a barbarian I am. Thing is this:- keris blades are only heat treated for the first few inches of the blade, just the point and a bit behind it, occasionally I have found a blade that has been hardened back as far as the point of the sogokan, but never into the sosoran. Some keris blades are not truly hardened at all, particularly blades with complex pamor miring. To draw a temper in steel treated for cutting wood --- or pushing into a human body --- you need to get into the blue range of temperatures, a bit like the guide used for sharpening chisels on a grinding wheel:- when you begin to see the blue coming into the blade you immediately dip your chisel into the water you have alongside the grinding wheel. But the heat treat for a keris blade does not include a draw, it is just hardened, & the residual heat above the quench bleeds back into the hardened section that has been created by the sepuhan and draws it down a little bit. With a keris you normally cannot read the colour of the steel, because the steel needs to be white to start with and a keris is either stained or dirty, but if you keep the steel temperature below the level at which it loses a working edge you will not ever do any damage. Here is a link to a good colour guide:- https://www.servicesteel.org/resourc...mpering-colors heating a keris blade you cannot use colour, but this guide demonstrates just how hot you need to get heat treated steel for it to lose the temper. But as I have written, with a keris, most of the blade is not hard to begin with, & up around the sorsoran there is no temper to lose. I suggest that you lose the gentle approach & be brave, use common sense & you will do no damage. It truly is a very easy job to remove a hilt, once you understand the process. If you fail the first time, just put the blade aside & try again after it has completely cooled down. It might be necessary to repeat the heat/cool process a few times, doing this the miniscule expansion/contraction weakens the bond & it can usually be removed easily. Just one gentle word of warning:- some hilts are held very firmly in place with rust, if you suspect that the problem is rust, you need to back off on excess strength unless you are prepared to repair the tang if it breaks, & that repair is really not a job for an amateur.

Today, 12:30 AM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 210	Thanks Alan, I had it over a gas stove flame and held it in the way you suggest. I will try again tomorrow. Yes I think its Araldite used liberally. I can't let it win.

Today, 03:04 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,042	It might be a little bit difficult to get the heat exactly where you want it with a gas stove, Sid. In Jawa I use a candle --- I use a candle in Oz too, if i run out of gas. A candle flame is dirty, but it cleans off easily with turps --- ie, mineral turpentine.