Cup-hilted rapier for comments

[mariusgmioc]

Hello!
This rapier is my latest acquisition and I am eager to know your opinions about it, whether positive or negative.

[Radboud]

What a lovely sword, congratulations on such a fine example.

[Jim McDougall]

Breathtaking Marius!
This is an authentic Spanish cuphilt in the style of mid 17th c. as pictured in "Rapiers" by Eric Valentine (Stackpole, 1968) examples 38 and 39.
The oblate pommel and guard is correct, wonderful guardapolvo (inside cup) and the blade typical diamond section.
Most blades by this time were German produced using spuriously placed names of famed Toledo makers....in the two examples in Valentine one with Tomas Aiala the other Sebastian Hernandez.

Any possibility of close up of these markings on the blade? These are the kinds of magic/occult type sigils and devices popular on Spanish blades and also copied by German smiths.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Marius,

What a beautiful sword, congratulations!

How long is the blade? From the pics it seems rather short...

Cheers
Chris

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Marius,

What a beautiful sword, congratulations!

How long is the blade? From the pics it seems rather short...

Cheers
Chris

Overall length is 114 cm, which is reasonably good for this type and age albeit it may have lost a couple of centimeters to successive sharpening and repairs.

Anyhow, the geometry of the blade (slightly broader than later types) appears to indicate late 16th to early 17th century, I guess...

No idea about markings but I may post more as soon as I receive it and get better photos. I am also very curious of any punch marks on the ricasso.

[Jim McDougall]

It seems that the overall length noted on this example (44 inches) corresponds exactly to the cuphilt I have.

[Jim McDougall]

Any thoughts on markings?

[Chris Evans]

Hi Marius,

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Overall length is 114 cm, which is reasonably good for this type and age albeit it may have lost a couple of centimeters to successive sharpening and repairs.

Anyhow, the geometry of the blade (slightly broader than later types) appears to indicate late 16th to early 17th century, I guess...

No idea about markings but I may post more as soon as I receive it and get better photos. I am also very curious of any punch marks on the ricasso.

Much appreciated!

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... I am also very curious of any punch marks on the ricasso...

Like Toledan smiths used to do .

[Jim McDougall]

Into the ether
The reason I am curious on the marks in the linear sequence on the blade rather than the usual makers name is they might have more esoteric meaning. Whether authentic or spuriously applied by German smiths,these are remarkably similar to some Milanese makers marks as well as some of the 'anchor' marks used by Toledo makers (i.e. Alonso Perez, late 16th, et al).
The others resemble some occult/magic markings which were often used in inscriptions, names etc. on blades by Toledo smiths (Wagner, 1967).

The Spanish method of swordplay was the mysterious system of 'destreza' or'the' Spanish Fight', (Aylward, 1945; Castle, 1885) which was based on geometric, mathematical, philosophical and occult principles. The weapon of choice was of course, the rapier, and while in the earlier years, very long blades were de riguer, however in time 'shorter' blades became favored (i.e. these 37" examples).

I think it may be possible that a series of marks similar to established ones used in Milan and Toledo on blades, coupled with magic type sigils might allude to a swordsmans knowledge and skills in destreza, and may have been applied in these sequences suggesting such esoteric connection.

Just thoughts.

[mariusgmioc]

I have received the rapier.

As I suspected, it has a punch mark on the ricasso consistent with the Toledo marks.

Unfortunately, it is mostly covered by the langet and very difficult to observe.
Any advice as how can I reveal it or which swordsmith may be, would be welcomed.

[Victrix]

Slip a sheet of paper in between the blade and langet and rub a pencil over the paper where the punch mark is?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Slip a sheet of paper in between the blade and langet and rub a pencil over the paper where the punch mark is?

Interesting, but rubbing a pencil while exerting some pressure is hardly possible inside the cup and under the langet.

So I am thinking of oiling it, then apply a thin blade of putty on it and get the mould of the mark. Maybe it will work.