Hilt Identification

[A. G. Maisey]

Here is a photo of a dagger hilt.

It is from Indonesia, & when I acquired it, it had a label attached by a previous owner that gave date & place of acquisition, I have not included the complete dagger because I do not want to influence anybody's opinion.

This question is directed only at the hilt shown.

Over the years I have had opinions from a number of people in respect of place of origin of this hilt, & I have my own opinion that has been formed from pictures seen in books.

Perhaps a total of 8 or 10 opinions in all --- people & books.

All these opinions vary to a greater or lesser degree.

Does anybody have a confident opinion on place of origin of this hilt?

[Bob A]

Reminds me somehow of some hilts I've seen from Nias, but I doubt I'm correct.

Even so, someone has to open the guessing.

[GIO]

Could it be from Mindanao ?

[Sajen]

To me it's a stylized makara handle, so a Sunda or Sumatra origin would be obvious to me.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you gentlemen.

Your responses demonstrate the problem I have had to the present time.

Hopefully a few more people might like to post a confident opinion.

Is anybody able to nominate an authoritative reference?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Is anybody able to nominate an authoritative reference?

Hello Alan,

Sadly no! But I think that it's indeed a stylized makara handle, compare it with a pedang handle from Lombok. Another possible origin.
When I am correct, we only have to look where makara handles were used, direct to mind coming Java, Sunda, Sumatra and Lombok.

[A. G. Maisey]

It might well be so Detlef, but other people have had other ideas.

For myself, I do not know, & that's why I'm looking for some certainty.

[kai]

Hello Alan,

No convincing, much less any confident opinion from my side, I'm afraid.

Pics from more angles may help. How old would you estimate this hilt to be? (From the pic, the carving quality doesn't seem to be especially high...)

However, in my opinion, any similarity would need to be really close to allow for any reasonable inference on its origin (or even possible meaning).

Regards,
Kai

[Ian]

Hello Alan,

You have presented a real test. Like most who have posted already, I don't recognize this pommel. However, I would like to comment on what we can see of the rest of this hilt. The grip area seems to be hexagonal in cross-section. That strikes me as unusual for an Indonesian bladed weapon or tool. You are far more expert on Indonesian knives and swords than anyone here, so perhaps you could comment on this feature of your hilt.

Multifaceted hilts are very common in the Philippines, and I wonder whether there is a multicultural aspect to this hilt. If your hilt were a recognized pattern, you would have found an answer to its origins by now. It seems to be unique. For me, that always raises the possibility of a multicultural item that has been influenced by an element foreign to the local one.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Kai & Ian.

Ian, the rest of the stem section of the hilt is exactly the same as you can see in the photograph. Faceted hilts are very common in Indonesia, especially in Jawa, the dominant Javanese keris hilt is faceted, as is the hilt of the wedung, and the many small work knives of Jawa & Bali also frequently have faceted hilts.

Kai, I do have some info that relates to date & time of purchase in Indonesia, however, I wanted to keep this out of the discussion because what I am seeking is an opinion that can be substantiated, perhaps from authoritative source material.
In respect of carving quality, I would classify the quality of carving execution as high, but design as simple.

Similarly, the weapon itself must be kept out of discussion.

What I'm hoping for is somebody who has either lived in the area where this form is known, or visited it, or has seen the form published. An opinion that can be substantiated with evidence, or with logical argument.

If I were to accept simply the point of original acquisition as a reasonable indicator of origin I might opt for that place, but my mind does not work in this way.

However, I can state with some degree of certainty that this hilt does pre-date 1920, & that it was purchased in the area of the world that is now known as Indonesia.

[Athanase]

Hello,

The finesse and straightness of the gripping part reminds me more of the Filipino handles (talibong or pira etc...).
If it's Indonesian, I was seeing something from Sumatra and more from the first half of the 20th century. The pattern reminds me of what you can see on certain batak and minang floral engravings but never on handles.
A very stylized Nias balato grip is also a solution but the Timor group D grips are really very close and would perhaps be the best solution.

It's really not easy!

[kino]

Here’s a dagger hilt from Mindanao. I’m guessing Lanao area and last quarter of 20th century manufacture.
It has some resemblance in a way.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Athanase & Kino.

We now have a pretty good collection of opinions here, & combined with the ones that I already had prior to beginning this thread we have certainly covered a wide area.

Perhaps it is time for me to tell what I do know for certain.

I have had the dagger that this hilt forms a part of since 1953. In 1953 I was 12 years old, and my grandfather gave me his edged weapon collection, most of which had been collected during his journey back to Australia from England, after the cessation of WWI.

He had purchased this dagger in Medan, Sumatera, in 1920.

Between about 1980 & 2000 a number of Indonesian friends & associates have seen photos of this dagger, & none have identified it as Javanese, but several have commented that it was very probably made for somebody who had a strong connection with the Colonial Government or who had a Dutch or other European employer, or who was a member of a kraton sub-society.

They had formed this opinion because the belt hook is in the form of an acorn. Indigenous people who were in the employ of Europeans, during the Colonial era, often included motifs with a European reference into their dress. Think of the Madura keris dress from this era, and the royal alterations to formal clothing.

None of the Indonesian people who have seen the photo of this dagger were able to name with any degree of certainty its point of origin. None of these people were involved with the overall art of Indonesia, but all were very knowledgeable in matters to do with Javanese weaponry.

I have a fairly comprehensive library of books that deal with Indonesian art, craft & sculpture. I cannot find any pictures of any objects that are precisely the same as the design motif of this hilt.

However, I can find elements of this design motif in objects that originate from Sumatera, Nias(Nias is actually a part of North Sumatera), North Jawa, Madura, & Kalimantan. Kalimantan gets the most hits.

The opinions expressed in response to my question name a number of places as possible points of origin, but nobody has expressed a firm opinion. Currently we have:-
Nias, Mindanao, Sunda, Sumatera, Lombok, Philippines, Timor.

I apologise for being unable to show the complete dagger, but this would infringe Forum rules, apart from which it would also be something that I would consider to be unethical behaviour.

I thank you all for your opinions, but I guess that for the moment point of origin of this design motif will have to remain unknown.

[Ian]

Alan,

The collective experience expressed here is drawing a blank to your very precise question. I assume there is no blade to go with this hilt. Has the hilt ever been used? If not, then perhaps it is not completely finished and the end that we can see was intended to be worked on further into a more recognisable form. Mention has been made that the "stem" appears well finished and precisely carved, while the end seems rougher in appearance.

EDIT: Sorry, I posted before reading your most recent post. So there is a blade to go with this hilt. This forum does ask that a picture of the entire item be provided in order to facilitate answers to identification questions and for reference in the archives. It is interesting to note the possible multicultural context of the knife and its history. As noted above, "... It seems to be unique. For me, that always raises the possibility of a multicultural item that has been influenced by an element foreign to the local one."

A picture of the scabbard may yield more information that the hilt, particularly if it has features consistent with Spanish influences.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ian, I do acknowledge that it would be desirable for the entire dagger to be presented, but this would be both unethical & in contravention of Forum rules. Additionally, it would not assist in the slightest degree in providing a response to my question.

I did not request an opinion on the entire object, only on the hilt, & and as you note, my question was precise. I apologise for the nature of my question, but in this case that is what I need, I already know where & when it was acquired and where it has been for the last 100 years or so.

The blade is ancient, & very probably would have been pusaka, the blade has nothing at all to do with the hilt, nor does the scabbard, except that it was used in assembling the dagger. I am already quite confident that the entire piece is associated with the dominant forces in the East Indies during the time it was created.

The only thing that puzzles me is the place of origin of the hilt.

The quality of carving in the hilt is high & it is typical of elements common in a number of places in today's Indonesia.

The entire dagger is late colonial period & probably after +/- 1880.

Yes, I agree with your comment on inter cultural influence, & in respect of the old East Indies, this is a very common element that stretches over a few hundred years.

[GIO]

I am convinced thay such hilt would not cut a bad figure on a talibong, but I m open to any opinionby from more evperts on the Forum, who are better informed and experienced.
Best regards Gio

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your contribution GIO, but this dagger is quite small, not really talibong size.

[Interested Party]

I noticed the planar form right off the bat. My question is have you identified the wood and used that to narrow the search? Not that nice wood isn't a trade good, but it would be a place to start.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your thoughts IP, but for the style and period that would be irrelevant.

For items of rural style & lower quality it might be relevant, but not for something like this little dagger.

I've already got a pretty good start, what I need is that very rare thing:- some specific knowledge of the design motif used in the hilt pommel.

Only that.

[Interested Party]

I guess my personal quirk is that I like to know the species woods used and what motifs represent, particularly when they are vegetative and esoteric beliefs.

I wish you luck on your search. Sorry I do not have any information for you. Maybe someday we will know what this item is and looks like if it is not too personal. Thanks for an interesting topic as always

-ip

[A. G. Maisey]

Motifs I do have high interest in, woods not so much. This is perhaps due to my principal interest being in Jawa & Bali, & Jawa has used imported woods for many years and until the present. Knowing the tree that wood comes from does not contribute to the knowledge of the item in a socio-cultural context, unless it is a local wood that does have some esoteric aspect associated with it.

The overarching principle is that it is the overall impression created by the appearance & the way in which the material has been worked that does count.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The overarching principle is that it is the overall impression created by the appearance & the way in which the material has been worked that does count.

Very true!

[Sajen]

One of the best paradigms is for example hippo ivory, used overall in SEA but not found there.