Palembang keris?

[PeterP]

Dear forum members, this is one of my latest flea market finds, a rather nice, I presume, Palembang keris. I think a nice one, it's big, the blade is 43 cm (without peksi) and in total 55.5 cm, and, as far as I can judge, it still retains it's original polish and wash. It's smooth, razor sharp, and no signs of any later warangan treatments, otherwise the smoothness would have been lost. The seller told me it came from an Indonesian family who came to Holland in the early twenties.
My questions are, is this a true palembang keris, or is it a blade from another origin combined with a Palembang dress. Next question is, during it's life it had a small accident. It probably fell, and as a result the ganja is askew. It doesn't fit in the scabbard anymore, which is a pity because if I follow the contours it would be a perfect fit. Does anybody has an idea how to get the ganja back in position without damaging anything. Last question. There is some rust. I know i can remove it by using vinegar, or lime juice, or anything mildly acidic, but then I would loose the wash and the polish. As I think it's a survivor, never been treated after it's production, I think it would be a shame to loose that. But that's me, others may think different. But is there a way to clean the blade without losing the finish?

[David R]

Wow, what a find!

[kai]

Hello Peter,

Thanks for posting - one of the moderators will shove this thread over to the keris forum, no worries.

Yes, I believe this a Palembang blade - nice one! The fittings could also originate from Lampung or the hinterlands.

I don't see the problem with the gonjo. Is it bent sideways?

Regarding rust removal, I'd first try local treatment. For superficial rust, repeated soaking with weapon oil and rubbing may be sufficient (gentle work with very fine steel wool is usually safe). Some patches visible on this blade may likely be more stubborn - more invasive treatment will likely remove the stain locally which may be feasible fix cosmetically if needed.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

A classic piece, very nice indeed.

It has probably been cleaned and stained a number of times, & if it were mine I would clean & stain it again now, but if you do not have the necessary experience and you do not have access to lab. quality arsenic, it probably best to give it repeated oil soaks and using magnification & a sharp pick, mechanically remove as much rust as possible. This oil & pick method works well, I cleaned a couple of Bali keris in this way around 50 years ago, & they are still excellent today. Took me a long time.

The gonjo is a pressure fit, it could be held in place with a tiny wedge driven down between tang and gonjo, or it could be held in place by tightening with a punch around the tang hole, either way it is a mechanical fit.

Using alloy jaw liners in a vice to hold the blade --- or just folded news paper, the tang can be tapped back into position. I use a jeweler's hammer for this, or you can use a punch & and a larger hammer. Sometimes the gonjo might rise up a bit, but again, it can be tapped back into position. This gonjo out of a alignment thing is pretty common, it can be considered to be normal maintenance. Best to use a punch & hammer to tighten the fit again when the gonjo is back in place. When you have the blade in the vice it is best to use your left hand over the top of the gonjo tail & gripping the blade, to hold it firmly and get feedback on what is happening.

Stylistically these Palembang keris are copies of Central Javanese keris, there were strong political ties between the Central Javanese kingdoms & the South Sumatera kingdoms.

[David]

Nice flea market find! That usually means you got a good deal too.
Yes, as Alan stated, this is classic Palembang and a pretty nice example. I would follow Alan's advice to fix the problems. It would be nice to restain this one if you have the skills and i think it would look very nice in full stain.
From the look of the tarnish on the selut i suspect it might actually be silver. If it were mine i would hit it with a jeweler's sliver polishing cloth and clean it up. Silver fittings are intended to shine.

[A. G. Maisey]

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

Not that i doubt it, but that's pretty specific. How did you come to that suspicion?

[PeterP]

Thanks for the advice, I'll give the gonjo realignment a try. It's only a little bit, but just enough to prevent the blade to be inserted all the way.
When I found the kerisses on the market I couldn't believe my luck. Probably could have bargained harder but I just wanted to do a quick getaway with the loot. It's not unique to find a keris on a fleamarket in Holland, but this quality is rare, and also for this price. Comparable to about ten good takeaway pizza's for two nice palembang kerisses, a sewar and three badeks. I think I had a pretty sweet deal..
I also wondered about a possible pendok. The quality of the wood of the sheath is not on par with the rest of the keris, pretty rough timber, while the grip and the wranka are of a very nice wood. I'll be on the lookout for a pendok, but hat's probably pushing my luck. Especially with the size of the keris, never seen a palembang one as big as this one, so finding a fitting pendok will be a challenge.
About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first.

[kai]

Yup, a bargain, Peter!

The offset gonjo should be easy to fix, indeed. Be gentle and take your time.

Feel free to also post the other pieces. (Separate threads allow for more focused discussion.)

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

I strongly suspect that this had a pendok in the past, & that it was likely to have been suasa (low content gold alloy).

It was most likely without any motif.

I beg to differ, Alan:

Yes, this would be the Palembang standard for high-end keris.

However, the selut is from silver and of an average quality. For a suasa pendok, I would expect a selut in gold.

The scabbard wood could use some TLC - it's probably of decent quality (commonly without pendok for most keris Palembang).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by PeterP

About the rust, I cleaned a few blades with pineapple/lime juice and that always resulted in a very porous and rough-ish surface. This blade has such a nice polish, a shame to loose that. I think I'll try the soak and needle method first.

Interesting. I have used pineapple juice quite a few times and have never found that the acid in it is strong enough to create any change in the surface texture of a blade, even after a week long soak.

[A. G. Maisey]

"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability.

But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok.

Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage.

But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif.

Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch.

Kai, I'm guessing on balance of probabilities & taking social mores into consideration, if I wished to extend my guesses --- which I'm not, I'd guess that the original selut might also have been suasa, and that has been replaced too. The gambar of the wrongko looks just fine to me, just a bit of furniture oil and elbow grease, but the gandar is as we would expect to see under a pendok, additionally, it appears to have adhesions of jabung, so just based on what I can see in the picture, there is no doubt at all in my mind that this keris did have a pendok in the past. In fact, if we look very carefully at the foot of the gambar, I tend to think that we can see more evidence of the previous fitting of a pendok, the curve of the top of a pendok is clear either an imprint, or just wood discolouration.

Peter, porosity in a blade exists from the time it was made & is the result of poor quality iron and insufficient washing of the iron --- "washing"> the repeated folding & welding of material prior to combining the iron with contrasting material, it is the first step in preparation of material for use in a blade. The rough surface of a keris blade after cleaning comes from the removal of the corrosion.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

"Likely" is not really specific David, I am indicating a relatively high degree of probability.

But yeah, sure, its only a guess, & I'm guessing like that because firstly, the blade is a quality blade, whoever could pay for that blade would not have had much of a problem in paying for very low carat gold in the pendok.

Keris fittings were a way of storing wealth, and when cash was needed, the pendok & the mendak (in Jawa) were usually the first to go. This keris is not really all that old, everything is in good condition, I doubt that it lost its pendok because of damage.

But for a replacement pendok silver or copper would be suitable --- but polos, ie, plain, no motif.

Peter, you might find that finger pressure alone is sufficient to re-align that gonjo, and then just tighten the fit of gonjo to pesi (tang) with a nail punch.

Well actually Alan, you said that you "strongly suspect" that this had a suasa pendok.That you suspected not only that it had one, but that it was suasa and indeed without any motifs sounds pretty specific to me.

[A. G. Maisey]

As you wish David, maybe we just went to different schools, or maybe we're looking at a difference in societal usage.

To me, "specific" means precise, whilst "suspect" indicates an idea or an impression. If I have specific evidence of something, I'm quite prepared to put somebody into court, if I only have suspicion of something, I throw the matter back to the investigators, no matter how strongly I may suspect.

My suspicion in respect of motifs is rooted in the fact that I cannot recall ever having seen an original Palembang pendok of the type indicated by this gandar as having an embossed or engraved motif.

[Jean]

This is not a recently made pendok

[A. G. Maisey]

Interesting Jean, in fact, there are several quite interesting things about this keris.

But putting matters other than the pendok to one side, what I actually said was:- "It was most likely without any motif." This is a qualified statement.

It is not difficult to find Palembang keris with an embossed motif to the pendok, really, all you need to do is few google searches. However, if we look very carefully at these embossed Palembang pendok, what we sometimes, or perhaps frequently note is that many of these embossed pendok have slight variations in form from the genuine Palembang pendok form, and that the embossing work looks decidedly Kota Gede, and we do know that Kota Gede workshops have accepted work from all across SE Asia for many years. Most particularly the workshop of Bp.Prawirodihardjo(alm.)

Something else we find is that the various elements of the dress vary remarkably from what we historically associate with Palembang .

But when we come across an old Palembang keris of very good quality, and that has been outside of SE Asia for a lengthy period we find that the pendok will be free of motifs. This has been my experience, but others might have had a different experience.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My suspicion in respect of motifs is rooted in the fact that I cannot recall ever having seen an original Palembang pendok of the type indicated by this gandar as having an embossed or engraved motif.

Frankly i was more wonder why you felt this keris was likely to have had a suasa pendok than whether it held a motif or not. I haven't seen too many suasa pendok of Palembang keris at all, though certainly they exist. But in general i am just not used to see you be so speculative so i was questioning you in hopes of understand what fueled your suspicions enough to comment on it.

[A. G. Maisey]

So, why suasa?

If we look very carefully at the fitting of the selut to the hilt, it is not all that great, my gut feeling is that this selut is a later fitting, maybe bought in the market and fitted by the owner.

The blade would have cost serious money, somebody who could afford this blade could certainly afford suasa, which can go very low in gold content, and at the time it was made would not have been all that expensive. At various times in the past, the cost of gold was not all that more expensive than silver, & if you're using low carat gold, it not really going to break the bank.

But its true, I'm just floating an opinion, others can can have differing opinions.

As for the prevalence of suasa, there have always been more people with tight budgets than people with flexible budgets.

[kai]

I'm with Alan, David.

A plain suasa pendok is the norm in Palembang for high-end pieces. Obviously, these are only a fraction of all keris Palembang.

Quite a few ensembles lost such pendok later on. Thus, they are not very common; still, there are enough examples in musea and old collections to prove this local preference.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Peter,

Please post close-ups of the wood under strong daylight after some TLC. This will help to estimate the quality of the timber utuilized for the fittings.

The hilt definitely is of high quality material.

Also please take close-up of the crosspiece before cleaning/treatment - sometimes a "shadow" from the pendok can be discernible under strong light.

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

A plain suasa pendok is the norm in Palembang for high-end pieces. Obviously, these are only a fraction of all keris Palembang.

hmmm...maybe i should have the metal tested on the pendok on my high end Palembang keris. I have always assumed it was brass.

[kai]

The difference is very obvious to the eye, David!

[kai]

Here's an example that hasn't been repolished for quite a while:

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

The difference is very obvious to the eye, David!

LOL! Yes Kai, i was making a joke. Sorry it went past you.
Just my way of wondering how something can be the "norm" while at the same time existing only in a "fraction" of examples.