Tessake, Dussage, Sinclair Saber for comment

[SwordLover79]

Gentlemen: I am eager to hear your thoughts concerning this large sword in my collection. It doesn't seem to fit neatly into any of the categories I read about in this forum such as Shiavona, Baskethilt, Sinclair, Dussage, etc. 2 inch wide, 36 inch long unmarked blade. Heavy swept hilt with finger loop and recurved quillons. Chiseled pommel and finials.

[fernando]

Forgot the pictures ? .

[SwordLover79]

Operator error - my apologies!

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting sword. Clearly the terms schiavona and basket hilt are being used in analogy,and the terms 'Sinclair' and 'dussage '(tessak, dussack) are typically synonymous for similar forms of North European basket hilted swords with understandably wide variations. This North European sword with basket type hilt is of 16th-17th c. type which is generally held as the likely influence on the schiavona and the English basket hilt, later the Highland basket hilt (known in period as the 'Irish hilt').

A great reference for sword classifications is "European Weapons and Armor" by Ewart Oakeshott, 1980. The focus is on hilt forms as it is noted blade forms, as agreed by AVB Norman, these are of remarkable variation, and often interchanged not only in original mounting, but in working life of the sword.

Precise classifications for many sword forms are often speculative as there are as noted, often different terms for the same type sword, then the complications of later applied 'collectors terms', of which 'Sinclair saber' is one, and actually a misnomer at that.

[werecow]

You may also want to google for "Styrian basket-hilted sword" as there are some very similar swords listed under that heading, e.g.. Though I don't know whether that term is correct for the type.

Would it be possible to add a picture of the whole sword, including the blade?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

... Would it be possible to add a picture of the whole sword, including the blade?

Oh ... yes; it is a must.

[SwordLover79]

I struggle to upload images...thoguthb I uploaded full views originally!

[Jim McDougall]

While Styria was the location of several centers for sword production it was a kind of 'buffer' production region between Northern Italy and South Germany. Though it produced many weapons for European supply, I am not personally familiar with that term used as an identifier but more commonly known by the areas used, mostly Eastern Europe and Balkans. As always, I am sure there are exceptions in catalogs and some references. It does not seem the compendiums of makers marks etc. list Styrian that I can recall offhand.

Many went into Black Sea regions as well and many Caucasian weapons have Styrian blades. As Styria often used the 'sickle' marks of North Italy, this may have been the conduit which brought the marks into the Caucasian sphere, there known as 'gurda'.

Images of the entire sword are a must, as often classification relies in degree on the type of blade....while 'Sinclair's are deemed sabers, various European hilts thought of in that category actually had straight blades.It is often a maddening business, as often straight blade swords are deemed 'sabers' (usually 18th into 19th c); in old fashioned parlance any straight sword was deemed a 'broadsword' while technically, if single edged it is a 'backsword'.

A short heavy bladed saber, if used on vessels was called a cutlass. When the sailors took them ashore to hack through vegetation, they were called a 'machete'. In military use such short blade weapons were termed 'hangers' (Scottish 'whingers'). The short heavy bladed sabers used in Spains colonies are termed 'espada ancha' by modern collectors, but in period they were only known as 'machete'. However many logs and records from vessels might term them cutlasses.

The point is.....neat classification with sword forms is daunting, perhaps often not possible, so it becomes a matter of detail and qualification in description.

[SwordLover79]

I have tried several times to upload images of the entire sword - here they are again.

[awdaniec666]

In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made".
Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that Adorable piece.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made".
Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that Adorable piece.

Exactly!!! You can see how the blade makes a difference. A pallasche is yet another European term for a full length heavy straight blade sword.
In Europe however, while the pallasche was a heavy, straight hacking and chopping sword, often a rider wore a saber at his side, and had a straight thrusting sword termed 'tuck' (estoc) under his leg saddle mounted.
In the Rembrandt painting it is hard to determine if this sword under the right leg is a tuck or pallasche, but the intent is to show the manner these were carried.

[Radboud]

playing the devils advocate here, but that blade looks very similar to the Sudanese kaskara. I’m also iffy on the lovely pommel and quillons decorations but the guard is a thin plain sheet. To my eye this combination doesn’t fit together.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Teisani

Found something with a nearly identical blade...

Also still on sale.

Radboud's kaskara suggestion is certainly feasible though. Maybe a picture of the peen could tell us something more about whether the blade is likely to have been rehilted?

EDIT: Adding a random kaskara from the intertubes for reference. The central fuller does sometimes run longer up to the full length of the blade.

[corrado26]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

In my opinion the correct description would be "Central European Pallasch, 1st half of 17th century, probably Styrian-made".
Certainly not a Dussack, Dussege, Säbel auf teutsch gefasst or any of that Adorable piece.

After my knowledge a "pallasch" has a streight blade with just one edge and a strong back! The blade in question has two edges what in Germany is called a "Degen". So the sword in question cannot be a Pallasch. In Germany we call such items "Felddegen"

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by corrado26

After my knowledge a "pallasch" has a streight blade with just one edge and a strong back! The blade in question has two edges what in Germany is called a "Degen". So the sword in question cannot be a Pallasch. In Germany we call such items "Felddegen"

Thank you Udo! well noted............the pallasch is indeed a 'back sword' (SE) and now I recall the 'degen' term ("Schwert, Degen, Sabel" , Seifert, 1962).

In looking more into the potentially viable 'kaskara' blade observation, I would note that these blades were apparently modeled after European import blades circulating through North African trade routes through the 19th century and possibly earlier. The type of blade with triple fullers (one central long, and often prolonged to the point).
It seems that these blades were often produced by Hausa smiths in regions in eastern Sahara to Sudan, and they typically applied twin crescent moons (dukari) at the terminus of the outside fullers.

In most notes, these fullers are well drawn, but obviously quality would vary situationally.

There are numerous forms in the fullering/grooving of blades on the kaskaras, and this triple type is but one.

While it is known that similar triple fullers are obviously known with earlier European swords, which were of course broadswords, the question is, do they belong in this type hilt? Naturally, all manner of modification might be expected due to preferences during working life of sword, but with these North European basket hilts, frankly I expect heavy, curved blade (as with dusagge/Sinclair).

With the kaskara blade image attachments, it seems most unusual to see these moons on Scottish blades, but lends to the idea that these kinds of moons may have actually been applied in Solingen (the blade with twin flutes is NOT something seen on Sudanese blades) though it is well known that application was also done in Sudan (and in Hausa context). Note also the more elaborate decoration added to many of these Sudanese blades.
This information does not offer solution to the blade in question in OP, but just context for consideration re: the blade shown.

[Akanthus]

Originally Posted by corrado26

After my knowledge a "pallasch" has a streight blade with just one edge and a strong back! The blade in question has two edges what in Germany is called a "Degen". So the sword in question cannot be a Pallasch. In Germany we call such items "Felddegen"

I took time to read up in „Fachwörter der Blankwaffenkunde“ from Gerhard Seifert (2007) to find the exact definition for Pallasch, Degen and Sabre.
The charakteristic of a Degen is the straight blade, which can be single or double edged.It is a kind of „ sword light “ .
In contrast a Sabre has a bent,single edged,to the tip often double edged blade.
A Pallasch has a straight, one or double edged blade in combination with a sabre hilt.The blade is broader than the blade of a Degen.
So in my opinion the shown weapon is rather a Pallasch .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Akanthus

I took time to read up in „Fachwörter der Blankwaffenkunde“ from Gerhard Seifert (2007) to find the exact definition for Pallasch, Degen and Sabre.
The charakteristic of a Degen is the straight blade, which can be single or double edged.It is a kind of „ sword light “ .
In contrast a Sabre has a bent,single edged,to the tip often double edged blade.
A Pallasch has a straight, one or double edged blade in combination with a sabre hilt.The blade is broader than the blade of a Degen.
So in my opinion the shown weapon is rather a Pallasch .

VERY well done!!!
SO the pallasche is, like the degen, a sword with either single or double edge.....but the pallasche is the same, but with SABER hilt.

There are so many swords which have saber type hilts but use broadsword (double edged) blades and seem contrary.........the Moroccan nimcha for example, which often, if not typically, has a double edged blade...and others.
The Spanish colonial sabers with three bar cavalry hilts (c. 1820s+) use the old broadsword blades from the bilbos.

Naturally the use of these terms often becomes broadly collective as various writers simply grab for a term without truly understanding these peculiarities.

For the brave souls who wish to look into edged weapon terms for elements and features and the etymology and usage........look into the terms hilt; quillon; pas d'ane; fuller; guard, et al...........