Schiavona markings

[urbanspaceman]

I finally found my schiavona and it is bought and paid for.
It has, however, some unusual markings - to my eyes anyway - and some very unusual markings too.
Can anyone cast any light on their provenance and meaning.

[Radboud]

Congratulations, that's a lovely sword. I was also sorely tempted when I saw it on the sellers site.

[Victrix]

Congratulations on your beautiful sword!

I belive that the markings on the hilt is Medieval Bosnian script (now extinct) once also used in Dalmatia, which likely spells the name of the sword furnisher. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Cyrillic. We have discussed this on the forum before.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Congratulations on your beautiful sword!

I belive that the markings on the hilt is Medieval Bosnian script (now extinct) once also used in Dalmatia, which likely spells the name of the sword furnisher. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Cyrillic. We have discussed this on the forum before.

Yes, lovely sword. I hope to go looking for one soon (although I may have something else on my radar first, so it may have to wait another year or so).

Those markings ring a bell... I think this might be similar?

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by werecow

Yes, lovely sword. I hope to go looking for one soon (although I may have something else on my radar first, so it may have to wait another year or so).

Those markings ring a bell... I think this might be similar?

Yes, well done! Look at post #51 in that thread. The letters look the same most likely. It then spells Grgur which is Slavonian for Gregory. He is believed to be a local Dalmatian artisan/hiltmaker. So the blades would be imported from a variety of sources and then probably hilted locally according to taste.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Yes, well done! Look at post #51 in that thread. The letters look the same most likely. It then spells Grgur which is Slavonian for Gregory. He is believed to be a local Dalmatian artisan/hiltmaker. So the blades would be imported from a variety of sources and then probably hilted locally according to taste.

I suspect that most people here own a copy of the Oakeshott book mentioned in that post, but just in case, here is the page in question.

EDIT: Obviously turned on its side again by the upload widget because computers. >_<

[urbanspaceman]

Well, thank-you all for that speedy resolution to those markings.
How about the blade markings? They are a mystery to me; can anyone shed any light on them.
Does one assume this sword had been made for the Venetian market?
Assuming further: if the sword is from around 1780, could the blade have come from Klingenthal?

[urbanspaceman]

I just came across this coat of arms of Dalmatia.
Is it long-since known to everyone that it is the Schiavona pommel?
I'm still catching up.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I just came across this coat of arms of Dalmatia.
Is it long-since known to everyone that it is the Schiavona pommel?
I'm still catching up.

You may be right. Although I thought the characteristic cat’s head pommel of Schiavonas was meant to represent the winged lion of Venice, which is the symbol of its patron saint St. Mark.

Parts of Istria and Dalmatia with islands were for some time lost by the Croatian-Hungarian dual Kingdom to the Republic of Venice during the Ottoman wars (see map). The Schiavona was named after the Slavonic people in this region, many of who served in the Venetian armed forces. Plenty fascinating history here.

[urbanspaceman]

Still catching up is a severe understatement: my remaining years would not suffice.
Yes, it is seriously fascinating history here, and I know nothing of it at all.
Of course, the world is a big place, full of division and endless bloody squabbles.
The literal translation of the word 'war' in Tibetan is "I want more cows"; succinct to say the least.
Being from the borders of Scotland and England (Newcastle) we never knew who was in charge from day to day. We didn't take sides, just welcomed whoever was in the ascendancy at the time.
Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.
Of course, without the wars there would be no swords and etc; we would have to collect something else.
It's astonishing just what is collectable these days: airline sick-bags anyone?
Sorry, strayed of the subject a touch.

[schiavonafleck]

Hello,
the name Grgur is engraved on the basket of your schiavona. It is written in Croatian Cyrillic or the so-called Bosančica. Grgur was a Croatian master blacksmith who made these complex baskets. The schiavona you bought does not have the original pommel. This is a subsequently cast and patinated pommel. That schiavona had another pommel even before Albanarms resold it. :/

[schiavonafleck]

.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello. Thank-you for your input.
It does raise more questions than it answers of course and I feel sure you can help here as you are obviously familiar with the provenance of this sword.
Where did the pictures (thank-you) featuring the old pommel come from?
I realised the new pommel was a casting as it still retains some of the flash. Tony indicated this in his description.
It is obviously an Italian (Belluno?) heirloom blade re-hilted in the second half of the 1700s.
Do you know where Grgur worked?
Even accepting that the blade is much older than the hilt doesn't explain the markings.
Are you familiar with the blade markings?
Jim McDougall gave me some fascinating info:
The arcs seem to have been around since the late 1400s, at least on one example attributed to Pippo and C. so they were probably added here to pretend a venerable past as I assume there were no such blade types around back then.
The TWIGS, as they are sometimes called, also date back to a similar time and used to come in groups of three similar to here.
The sword Jim referenced came from the 'hall of the Council of Ten'.
It seems likely that all of this was done to exhibit reverence to a sword for a member of the Doge's bodyguard.
The blade has seen considerable activity as the edges show long curves of grinding in places to remove nicks: very nicely done.
Incidentally, the basket is rather small and is a snug fit even for my rather petite hands.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by werecow

EDIT: Obviously turned on its side again by the upload widget because computers. >_<

Upright now

[Jim McDougall]

Just to say thank you to Schiavona fleck! Its not often we have these kinds of insightful comments on the mysteries of Balkan oriented weapons!
It makes perfect sense that a Croatian master made this hilt, and I have often wondered just what the situation was with the Croatians who served as bodyguards and auxiliary forces for the Doge of Venice. This arrangement has remained in place for centuries as part of a treaty in early conflicts between the Venetian State and Croatia.

I would like to know more of course on when this blacksmith worked and where. As the schiavona evolved being a primary form in Venice with these forces (the more developed trellis guard from basic Hungarian S guard hilts) there was of course focused production of these through the centuries.

With the pommel, the replacement example of the more correct 'cats head' and in brass in NO way diminishes the value of this important example, especially historically. It is not often a schiavona example can be placed exactly with the famed Croatian (Slovonian et al) forces for the Doge.
The earlier pommel appears to have been another Balkan, East European type known as the 'kosarice', for resemblance to a type of Balkan pastry.

The markings, as I have noted, are distinctly Italian, and of varying examples of what Sir James Mann (Wallace Collection, 1962) terms the 'twig' mark. These often in subtle variation but always the triple lines across a horizontal bar, were common on Italian blades from the late 15th century, through the 16th and later continued as approximations spuriously as often the case.

"..these twig marks were commonly found on Italian blades, as well as occurring singly" (Mann, 1962, p.255 op cit), as he notes they often appear in groupings of three. It should be noted that these also occurred in various configurations and groupings with other marks (such as the indistinguishable punzone on this blade).

Mann (p.255) also notes "loop shaped marks at base of the blade" as possible (probable) variations of the well known 'sickle' marks typically (and incorrectly) distinguished as exclusively Genoan. It is noted that these marks (presumably the 'loops') and 'sickle' are often found on swords to the armory of the Doge in Venice.

Here I would note that markings on blades are not necessarily to a certain blade maker, though certain ones seem favored by particular makers. In actuality, while we cannot know exactly what these sundry markings meant or represented, it may have been as simple as a certain stamp being at hand or other. Makers either had their own forge and shop, or worked in those of others, in which case, the markings or their variations/groupings may have distinguished a certain worker and accounted for his work to his master.

Many markings may have had deeper, more complex talismanic or other origin, but over time they suggested quality that became associated with a certain makers blades, with the known meaning lost over time. Often markings are suggested to have guild associated distinction, and while this is somewhat correct, typically it was only registered punzones with this case.
Other markings like the sickle or 'Passau wolf' were simply long recognized symbols in the quality imbuement convention noted.

In all, a wonderful example with remarkable history to the notable State of Venice and its Doge's. While most examples to the notorious and feared 'Council of Ten' are typically marked, this example is with that context in degree.

[urbanspaceman]

Here's a thought: could the pommel have belonged to the blade prior to the re-hilting?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I just came across this coat of arms of Dalmatia.
Is it long-since known to everyone that it is the Schiavona pommel?
I'm still catching up.

It is unclear what the cats head pommel alludes to. Of course the winged lion of St. Mark is a well known symbol in Venice, but the cats head pommel may have other connections. With the familiar 'katzbalger' swords of the Landsknecht mercenaries of Germany but long associated with the Swiss, the term of course alludes to 'cat fighter' for the ferocity of feral cats in their fights. These kinds of associations, while typically apocryphal, seem to make sense for the character of the fighting men of these times.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Here's a thought: could the pommel have belonged to the blade prior to the re-hilting?

It seems unlikely as the kosarice pommel was not as characteristic or popular on the schiavona proper, though it was more common on varying other swords of the times. If the catshead pommel was original to the sword I cannot see why it would be removed for a kosarice. Also if flashing remained on the end product it would be unseemly for a product of the times.

The blade and hilt are most likely homogenous unless otherwise told by handling. Hilts are often dismantled when grips are being restored, a common occurence as these are not as durable of course.
Quite possibly the original pommel might have been damaged in this process and a more correct one in its place.

Blade and hilt associations are quite often encountered as shown in Mann(1962) where often there are hilts much older than the blades, which seems unusual. However the heirloom situation is not just restricted to blades. Often a heirloom sword (hilt) has had blade broken and simply needs a new one.

The Italian center of Belluno (where Andrea Ferara and his brother worked but in a forge of another maker) was just one of a network of several blade makers in various towns. The blades from these were produced and sent to key locations (Milan etc.) for hilting and sheathing. Just as with blades from all the known centers, they were seldom mounted in the same location.
Blades were highly valued and often remounted numerous times from their original furbishing.

[urbanspaceman]

Looking through rapier hilts in Norman showed a few examples of that pommel (note the hole to accept an arm) so I wondered if the blade had originally had that pommel and a typical rapier hilt was subsequently changed for the schiavona basket.
I don't know if the spiral fluted, leather covered, wooden grip was ever used on rapiers in the early days; I have seen it frequently on schiavonas, so maybe that was added as well.

[urbanspaceman]

The cat's head pommel is very obviously a recent casting and patinating, as Schiavonafleck indicated. It's a fine job, despite the flashing, and completes the hilt perfectly.

[urbanspaceman]

Following - again - Victorix' link to an early thread I came across this in post number 46:

[urbanspaceman]

My apologies werecow, it was your link, not Victorix's

[Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by schiavonafleck

Hello,
the name Grgur is engraved on the basket of your schiavona. It is written in Croatian Cyrillic or the so-called Bosančica. Grgur was a Croatian master blacksmith who made these complex baskets. The schiavona you bought does not have the original pommel. This is a subsequently cast and patinated pommel. That schiavona had another pommel even before Albanarms resold it. :/

What is croatian cyrrilic? That does not exist. Only cyrrillic alphabet is used by serbs. In those parts of Croatia the majority of the inhabitants in that period of time was serbian ethnic people.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

What is croatian cyrrilic? That does not exist. Only cyrrillic alphabet is used by serbs. In those parts of Croatia the majority of the inhabitants in that period of time was serbian ethnic people.

How interesting.
The cyrillic alphabet is of course familiar to most people aligned with the Russian language, however it is well known with the Slavic languages.
The variations, as with most languages, are dialectic and it seems the differences, while limited, are to use of different letters.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

What is croatian cyrrilic? That does not exist. Only cyrrillic alphabet is used by serbs. In those parts of Croatia the majority of the inhabitants in that period of time was serbian ethnic people.

Are you one of those Serbian Nationalists so knotted up with hate that you can't resist the urge to sign up to a sword forum to make your first post a denial of someone else's history or identity?

How about you contribute something other than hate?

I don't know much about Croatian cyrrillic but a quick search landed me on this interesting website that might help others in examining the topic further:

Croatian Cyrillic Script

[urbanspaceman]

Jim, Radboud, thank-you for clearing this up.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Jim, Radboud, thank-you for clearing this up.

You bet! Interesting to look back to discussions in 2012 (Oct.) when 'Aurelius' (FROM Croatia) joined us and noted that Croatian cyrillic was termed 'bosancica' and comparable lettering shown on a sword was to GRGUR MAJSTER (=Gregory artisan) . This type 'Croatian cyrillic' was used up to end of the 18th c. and shown in Oakeshott ("European Weapons and Armor" p.189, fig.87).

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

You bet! Interesting to look back to discussions in 2012 (Oct.) when 'Aurelius' (FROM Croatia) joined us and noted that Croatian cyrillic was termed 'bosancica' and comparable lettering shown on a sword was to GRGUR MAJSTER (=Gregory artisan) . This type 'Croatian cyrillic' was used up to end of the 18th c. and shown in Oakeshott ("European Weapons and Armor" p.189, fig.87).

Indeed. Otherwise we wouldn’t have figured it out by ourselves. The power of the internet is amazing! Sharing information selflessly in the pursuit of knowledge.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Indeed. Otherwise we wouldn’t have figured it out by ourselves. The power of the internet is amazing! Sharing information selflessly in the pursuit of knowledge.

Exactly, learning together and everybody searching and sharing notes....

[Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Are you one of those Serbian Nationalists so knotted up with hate that you can't resist the urge to sign up to a sword forum to make your first post a denial of someone else's history or identity?

How about you contribute something other than hate?

I don't know much about Croatian cyrrillic but a quick search landed me on this interesting website that might help others in examining the topic further:

Croatian Cyrillic Script

Seems like you are the prosecutor and the executor in this matter without any proof. If I were a politician and not a collector I would not stop. But accusing me of hatred toward others and accusing me to be a nationalist without knowing me is not ok.