my last keris

[Marcokeris]

I bought in Yogya last week

[A. G. Maisey]

Remarkable.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Remarkable.

Indeed!

[JustYS]

Is it possible to see the wilah Marco?

What is the stones used in the mendak?

Thank you

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Is it possible to see the wilah Marco?

What is the stones used in the mendak?

Thank you

JustYS the new mendak is a very cheap type and the stone are blue glass

[Marcokeris]

.

[David]

Well, i've never seen the likes of that and, of course, my first question has to be "Why"?
Are you willing to show us the blade?

[Green]

sometimes i just don't understand mr Maisey's comments. Whether he's saying it seriously, tongue in cheek or something in between , as in this case of a very concise zen like comment "remarkable"

What is remarkable about this keris ?. i'm very ignorant about javanese keris (especially) and i'd love to learn what is remarkable with this one (and without the blade being shown at that!)

Nik

[Sajen]

Hello Nik,

Please have a look to #3 and special to the attached picture, you will understand Alan's comment!

[kai]

Hello Nik,

Detlef was already trying to assist Marco & Alan: While all fittings are in the traditional position (for a sheathed keris Jawa), the blade got fitted into the scabbard (and to the hilt) in a reversed position!

It's hard to imagine this being just an accident or a mere mishap of a tukang apprentice on his first day.

My imagination is not really up to taking any reasonable guess at the reason for such a deviation.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Wait, how did you sneak in that last comment, Detlef?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kai

Wait, how did you sneak in that last comment, Detlef?

Magic, pure magic!

[A. G. Maisey]

Nik, will you please accept my apologies for being so obscure in some of my posted remarks. Sometimes I am tongue in cheek, sometimes I am deliberately over polite in order to attempt to avoid offense, sometimes what I might write will only be understood by those who are intended to understand it.

Above all it would be a mistake to take everything I write as being deadly serious, or as being cut into stone with a chisel and four pound hammer.

In respect of my "remarkable" comment, well, over 70 years of handling & seeing keris I believe I have never seen an (apparently) professionally mounted keris set into its scabbard back to front.

In my opinion this is something that is truly worthy of some sort of remark, but like Kai, formulation of such remark is beyond my abilities.

[Rick]

I guess I have two questions:

Why did you purchase it?

Why is it reversed in the wrongko?

I think we'd all like to know your reasoning.

[Green]

Alan, Sajen and Kai;

I'm really not observant! my bad. Many thanks for pointing that out!
That is truly a first. "Remarkable" ! Rightly so Alan.I've never seen the blade in reverse position in the sheath like this also. Can anyone give any reason why ?

(Although I must say I've seen a LOT of hilts positioned in reverse position even by the so called 'experts'....)

[milandro]

Since Marco is not a novice at this, I am supposing that there is more that meets the eye here and that he is just chuckling

[Marcokeris]

dapur Maeso Slurung / Nabrang

[JustYS]

Hi Marco,

Which reference are you using for the dhapur name?

According to Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo (from your old post), dhapur Mahisa/Kebo Selurung is as the following:

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi Marco,

Which reference are you using for the dhapur name?

According to Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo (from your old post), dhapur Mahisa/Kebo Selurung is as the following:

I reported only the name of dapur that the seller indicated to me at my request

[David]

It looks similar to Mahesa Kathong with luk, but no kembang kacang. An interesting blade.
That said i can see absolutely no logic in the reversed hilt and sheath positioning.

[A. G. Maisey]

This dhapur naming is perhaps a good example of the non-standardisation of keris terminology.

Marco's seller has given it as "Maeso Slurung / Nabrang " , "maeso" = "mahesa" = "kebo", kebo keris have a long gandhik, "slurung" is maybe from "selur" = "in a row", so maybe the name given indicates a "kebo keris with gandhiks in a row". Maybe.

However, if we use the Surakarta pakem as our reference, what we are looking at is dhapur Dhuwung Luk Lima.

Then we have dhapur "Mahesa Nabrang", this form has 15 luk.

Names used for dhapurs can & do vary from place to place, and within those places from group to group.

The Javanese language itself is not a standardised language --- according to linguists --- Javanese people famously have only one name, they do not use a family name, but that one name can change according to situation & context.

I do not believe it is possible to know all the name variations for pamors & dhapurs.

[Marcokeris]

in the other way, no possible....or possible but no good for ganja (too much inside or to much outside the wrongko line surface)

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, just a gentle little hint:-

the word "dapur" means "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesia.

the word "dhapur" means "shape or form" in Basa Jawa

"dapur" is not a Javanese word, "dhapur" is not an Indonesian word.

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by David

That said i can see absolutely no logic in the reversed hilt and sheath positioning.

Hi David,

If I understood correctly the following is the correct orientation of the blade and the hilt (right Marco?) hence the reversed sheath positioning. Very unusual dhapur indeed.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi David,

If I understood correctly the following is the correct orientation of the blade and the hilt (right Marco?) hence the reversed sheath positioning. Very unusual dhapur indeed.

yes YustYs,.This is the only correct position of this kind of blade. If you change position is the same if you to put a right shoe on a left foot

[Marcokeris]

not the same daphur, but just to give the idea

[Marcokeris]

cengkrong 5 luk , perhaps...but probably not

[A. G. Maisey]

The SKA pakem cengkrong lacks kruwingan, whilst the SKA pakem dhuwung does have kruwingan, also a cengkrong does not need to have the back edge sharp, whereas the dhuwung does.

The subject keris has a sharp back edge and kruwingan.

Using the SKA pakem it cannot be anything other than dhuwung luk lima, but I have no idea at all what it might have been called at the time & in the place where it was made.

I do not think this is a Central Javanese keris, more likely East Jawa, and over there it could have a half dozen other names.

Actually, if we did allow that it was a cengkrong with 5 luk, in spite of the fact that it does not quite satisfy the requirements for a cengkrong, it would then be a Pandowo Cengkrong, not a Cengkrong Luk Lima.

[kai]

I beg to differ, Marco: At least from a Surakarta perspective, this seems to be a non-sequitur.

Blades of mahesa = kebo family (including dhuwung if I may) seem to be consistently oriented in the standard position (with the gandhik to the left, tip up). All keris of one of these dhapur variants that I've seen so far (including pieces in Yogya fittings) had been fitted to scabbards (and hilts) in the standard position, too.

The only exception seems to be dhapur cengkrong/cundrik which does seem to be mounted "backwards" - not sure if this is always done? (I've also seen a cengkrong/cundrik with regular gandhik and kembang kacang on the shorter side - kinda with dhungkul vibes.)

Maybe the tukang confused these similar dhapur families? The scabbard appears to be modern, correct?

Regards,
Kai

[Marcokeris]

please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out