![]() |
|
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
![]() |
#91 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Ulászló II king of Hungary 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/3834
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#92 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Bethlen Gábor 1624 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...is/adatlap/262
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#93 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Lipot king of Hungary. 1660 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7147
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#94 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Miksa or Maximilian1569
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#95 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
This one is interesting. It has the same turned quillons as in the Telegdi Miklós effigy. Dated 1615. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1925
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#96 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Figure-8 koncerz from 1573.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1271 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#97 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
King Louis II of Hungary 1526.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/4158 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#98 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Rákóczi Zsigmond 1607. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/2250
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#99 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
King Miksa of Hungary => Gergely Koroknay of Somogyi 1573. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/2001
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#100 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
King János I of Hungary grants Sandrin Bakács of Szentgyörgyvölgyi CoA, 1532. One of the first evidences for boot hilt and knuckle bow https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1999
Last edited by Teisani; 21st March 2023 at 07:19 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#101 |
Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 150
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#102 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]() Quote:
I also propose the term banana-hilts for these: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=20 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=21 This term will be my contribution to science and humanity. People will forget about that pretender Gilgamesh and instead write stories on clay tablets about me. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#103 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Hungarian king Miksa => Imre Orlle of Karva, Miklós Orlle of Karva | renewal of coat of arms 1571. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1331
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#104 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Bocskay Istvan 1606. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...is/adatlap/137
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#105 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
This is interesting. A very early depiction of boot-hilt sabres on this document from the king of Hungary, Ulászló II, 1507.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1988 Although it is also here by Miksa in 1572. Strange. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1960 Last edited by Teisani; 21st March 2023 at 10:46 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#106 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Ulászló II king of Hungary from 1507. I would consider this an Ottoman banana-hilt...yes, I'm making standard designation
![]() https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/3919 |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#107 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 688
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#108 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Same CoA as this one http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=100. But from 90 years later. Ferdinand II king of Hungary grants Sándor Bakács of Szentgyörgyvölgyi CoA, 1622. Reverse L-guard on his koncerz. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...is/adatlap/249
"By giving his horse to Palatine János Bánffy in the Battle of Mohács, Sándor Bakács saved his life" Last edited by Teisani; 21st March 2023 at 01:49 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#109 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
King Janos grants CoA in 1533. Early Ottoman-like, short quillons https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...azis/adatlap/2
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#110 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Ferdinand I king of Hungary grants CoA in 1559. Koncerz vs. Lance! He seems to have been pierced by the lance in his forearm. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7285
Last edited by Teisani; 22nd March 2023 at 08:24 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#111 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Unrelated but cool. 1559. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/6925
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#112 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
|
![]()
Excellent work, Gentlemen; just keep going
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#113 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Figure 8 koncerz from 1559 https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...zis/adatlap/22
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#114 |
Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 150
|
![]()
Speaking about those, banana-hilt is the better choice in comparison to an obvious alternative which found its way into nomenclature of medieval daggers
![]() Could be as well a side-sword or rapier in my opinion but I guess thats of minor importance. Again, I think one of, if not the most important specifications of a Koncerz is it´s role as a sword-lance from horseback with a lenght that was unsuitable for mounting it on a persons belt ![]() Last edited by awdaniec666; 21st March 2023 at 04:13 PM. Reason: as always typo and add-on |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#115 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
I would classify these swords with thin blades with acute points, pommels and figure-8 guards as koncerz / estoc / hegyestőr, because we have remnant specimens that match the iconography. You can find here an article with many pictures of this type of weapon. https://library.hungaricana.hu/en/vi...g=181&layout=s
From what I can tell, based on iconography gathered so far, koncerz were of two main types, pommeled with cross/U/8-guards or boot-hilted with cross/L/N-guards. You can see pommeled koncerz on the Stockholm Roll with the wedding procession of Sigismund III Vasa into Cracow, 1605. I talked about the Moldovan envoy's here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=97 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=98 Now let's look at some others from the Stockholm Roll. You can see below other individuals wearing the same kind of golden sword with narrow sccabard and lack of knuckle-bow as the Moldovan envoy. Others are wearing swords under their left leg with knuckle-bows, boot-hilts and wide scabbards. I would call these pallos / pallash / palasz since the wide scabbards indicate wide blades for cutting. Now here is a problem... some are in a grey zone. It's difficult sometimes to clearly define a sword as koncerz or pallash. Same probleam as in the case of side-sword versus rapier. For example the swords below, I would define as pallash without hesitation. And they show the Ottoman origins of the wide pallash in Europe. https://www.khm.at/de/objektdb/detail/372961/?lv=detail Skanderbeg https://szablyavivas.blogspot.com/20...ardja.html?m=1 Thury Gyorgy But what about the bottom one in this picture. Shorter than usual, can cut, but still very thrust-centric. Most would say koncerz, but I would say that calling it a pallash is also reasonable, because it would have functioned as one due to its blade length. And sometimes you get wide blades in these pommeled koncerz hilts. Now for a recap: Effigies http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=63 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=64 Painted art http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...1&postcount=81 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=92 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...8&postcount=95 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=96 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=100 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=105 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=108 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=110 in this one you can see the hussar going against the Ottoman lancer. So koncerz vs. lance. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=113 It also occurred to me just now, after all these depictions in effigies and paintings, that these N-quillons, most likely, actually existed. I initially considered Stroe Buzescu's sword with N-quillons as artistic license or a unique specimen due to "eccentric rich guy" sindrome. Se here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...5&postcount=61 Now it seems, it may not be so implausible. Last edited by Teisani; 22nd March 2023 at 06:39 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#116 |
Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 150
|
![]()
This is interesting and thanks for posting those links.
It seems to me that the concept of the Hegyestőr in Hungary and it´s specifications differs depending on which time period one is looking at. In Polish literature Koncerz means basically the over-long Estoc with Hungarian hilt from the 17th century onwards. Going through the information provided by you - and this makes sense since this weapon interpretation came from Hungary most possibly - discussed weapon (here the hegyestőr) design has in fact been shorter and carried by the belt. "A hegyestőrök a 15. században jelentek meg, Stiborici Stibor a sírkövén jobb oldalára fölkötött hegyestőrt visel." (Hegyestőr appeared in the 15th century, Stibor Stiborici wears a Hegyestőr tied to the right side of his tombstone.) "A katonák nem a derekukra kötötték, hanem a nyereg jobb oldalára erősítették." (The soldiers did not tie it around their waists, but attached it to the right side of the saddle.) Source: https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegyest%C5%91r |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#117 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
To clarify, in this discussion, I reffer to:
N-quillons as quillons that are bent in the plane parallel to the sword's longitudinal axis. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=66 S-quillons as quillons that are bent in the plane perpendicular to the sword's longitudinal axis. K-quillons as these, János Kemény and Ferenc Bethlen swords 8-guard L-guard (normal and reverse) http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679322061 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679327742 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679324305 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...1&d=1679401849 U-guard Last edited by Teisani; 22nd March 2023 at 10:38 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#118 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
King Rudolf of Hungary grants Tamás Baráthy CoA. 1580 Prague. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/6871
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#119 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
Ouch! This guy got pierced in the hip with a lance.
King Miksa of Hungary => Ferenc Tury of Nagytúr | renewal of coat of arms 1571. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/6962 Last edited by Teisani; 22nd March 2023 at 11:15 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#120 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
|
![]()
King Rudolf of Hungary. Bratislava 1580. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1222
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Tags |
hungary, ottoman, saber poland |
|
|