South American Knives

[Lee]

Here are a few more South American knives. The longer of the first two seems to have the requisite features of a facón with a long slender and thin blade with extensive etched decoration. The blade of the second is also narrow and thin but presently shorter.

[Lee]

Next, a couple of puñales and a verijero. The top knife is marked for a retailer in Buenos Aires.

[Lee]

Next a couple with gold highlights marked for a retailer or maker in Montevideo, Uruguay.

[Sajen]

Hello Lee,

Very nice collection of the so called "Gaucho knives" and very well described!
Are the mounts by all examples from silver?

Regards,
Detlef

[Lee]

Detlef, thank you, I think the mountings of all of them are silver alloys. I suspect the top one in the second post will be the least fine. The middle knife in post #2 above (with the gold initials on the sheath) is marked on the hilt and clip with either '900' or '800', but the punch is so tiny that I cannot be sure even using a jeweler's loupe. That knife is also marked 'ADRIAN' on the clip.

The one I previously presented, marked 'Napoleon III', tested an average of 72% silver for the mounts by XRF with a few percent variation between readings, with its suspected Solingen steel blade having 0.64% Manganese followed by 0.62% Silicon.

[Sajen]

Hello Lee,

Thank you. I have handled a few of them but mostly the more recent stuff and I am very careful to buy them since there are so much recent examples on the market but I would be more interested to add a few antique examples to my collection.
The best one I have owned but resold is in the first picture, it would be of great interest for me to know an approx. age from this example. And are they manufactured completely in Germany or they use only the blades in Argentina?
The second one was sold for a high price by a German auction not long ago, I think it's a Brazil knife. This is something I would like to own.

Regards,
Detlef

[Chris Evans]

Hi Lee,

Nice collection - I am envious!

Cheers
Chris

[ariel]

BTW, who knows why the capitol of Uruguay is named so?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
This is the only other S.American knife I have. Criollo Punal, blade made by J.A. Henckels. Solingen. imported by and hilt made? by R Laydner, Porto Alegre, Brazil. The knife is 14 1/2 inches overall with a 9 1/2 inch blade. The hilt is good quality and seems to be silver. The sheath is leather with a plated brass chape. It would appear to date from the 1st quarter 20thC as the particular style of Henckels logo stamped on the blade was introduced in 1900 although the company has been going since the latter part of the 18thC. As far as I can gather R. Laydner exhibited amongst other things cutlery at a trade fair in the U.S.A. in 1895.
Regards,
Norman.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Ariel,

Originally Posted by ariel

BTW, who knows why the capitol of Uruguay is named so?

Here's a good article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montevideo

Cheers
Chris

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

,,,,
The second one was sold for a high price by a German auction not long ago, I think it's a Brazil knife. This is something I would like to own.

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef:

Looking at the second example that you posted, I'm struck by the long "ricasso" of what looks like an embellished brass collar. The appearance reminds me of a Spanish puñal from the late 18th/19th C . I've posted a picture of one from Ashoka Arts sold page, and another that I have.

.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Looking at the second example that you posted, I'm struck by the long "ricasso" of what looks like an embellished brass collar. The appearance reminds me of a Spanish puñal from the late 18th/19th C . I've posted a picture of one from Ashoka Arts sold page, and another that I have..

Hi Ian,

Yes, there are similarities to the Spanish punals, for me a sign from where they spring from.
But looking at the handle, the foot of the scabbard and the scabbard clip I am very positive that it is indeed a Brazil knife. The feature of the brass covered or brass inlaid ricasso is also seen by the Brazil faca de pontas, see attached picture.

Best regards,
Detlef

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

BTW, who knows why the capitol of Uruguay is named so?

There are at least two versions regarding the origin of the name. The first is based on the navigation log of the expedition of Fernão de Magalhães (Fernando de Magallanes in Spanish), dated January 1520. This document records the existence of a hill that resembled a hat, located to the right of the sailor. from east to west. This mountain was named "Mount I saw". (MONTE VI EU). Signed by Francisco de Albo, the expedition's quartermaster, this is the oldest document in Spanish that mentions a name similar to "Montevideo". The other version, despite having no basis in historical documents, is more widespread. It reports that, sailing along the Rio de la Plata from East (ESTE) to West (OESTE) (from the Atlantic Ocean to the continent), you can see the 6th mountain in the region where the Uruguayan capital is located today. Hence, the record of "Mount VI from East to West", which in abbreviated form is written MONTE VI-D-E-O.

PS
Sorry; i did not notice Chris post .

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

Yes, there are similarities to the Spanish punals, for me a sign from where they spring from.
But looking at the handle, the foot of the scabbard and the scabbard clip I am very positive that it is indeed a Brazil knife. The feature of the brass covered or brass inlaid ricasso is also seen by the Brazil faca de pontas, see attached picture.

Best regards,
Detlef

Agree completely Detlef. Just referencing a possible progenitor for that very fine knife. Everything looks Brazilian in manufacture, as you say.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Just referencing a possible progenitor for that very fine knife.

Yes Ian, I also think that the progenitor is Mediterranean.
But the oldest form are the Venetian daggers IMVHO.

Attached picture shows from up to down:
1. dagger from Venezuela
2. from the Canary Island
3. from Albacete, Spain
4. from Corsica
sorry for the picture quality

Regards,
Detlef

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Sajen

The best one I have owned but resold is in the first picture, it would be of great interest for me to know an approx. age from this example. And are they manufactured completely in Germany or they use only the blades in Argentina?

I will stop my procrastinating and honestly reply that I am not sure. My guess would be that your former knife with the gold trim is not really old - maybe second half of the twentieth century - as there is some really good work being done currently and recently in old styles. With equally low confidence, I'd give a similar date for my two from Uruguay and also for my puñal with the gold trim. The work on all of these is very good but they show little sign of wear from use for either mountings or blade. The rest show repairs, damage and significant wear allowing me to more confidently push them back across the line into the 19th century or just short of that.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Lee

I will stop my procrastinating and honestly reply that I am not sure. My guess would be that your former knife with the gold trim is not really old - maybe second half of the twentieth century - as there is some really good work being done currently and recently in old styles. With equally low confidence, I'd give a similar date for my two from Uruguay and also for my puñal with the gold trim. The work on all of these is very good but they show little sign of wear from use for either mountings or blade. The rest show repairs, damage and significant wear allowing me to more confidently push them back across the line into the 19th century or just short of that.

Hi Lee,

A good guess is better as nothing! Thank you. Like you said, it was also my guess, mid. to end of the 20th century. And you are correct, it looks like it was never used.

Regards,
Detlef

[RobT]

Sajen,

From what I have been able to gather online, there is no such Solingen maker as Franz Wenk. The name Franz Wenk is a trade name for knives made by FANACU (Fábrica Nacional de Cuchilleria Uruguay). I wonder if there isn't a sort of play on words with Franz Wenk standing for a sly French wink.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Lee]

Well, RobT has done a fine job of revealing where that particular blade was made!

Struggling through Dagas de Plata with my virtually nonexistent Spanish language skills, I found a reproduction of a catalog page showing complete knives of various styles available from a German supplier (p. 12). Chapter 7 details the development of the blade making center of Tandil, starting in the later part of the first half of the 20th century. I suspect the vast majority of knives used imported blades that were locally mounted up until that time, and that since then the knives have increasingly become a completely South American product.

[RobT]

Lee,

Some of the online sources that supplied the Franz Wenk information also suspected that the the blades were actually made in Argentina and exported to Uruguay where hilts were added.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by RobT

From what I have been able to gather online, there is no such Solingen maker as Franz Wenk. The name Franz Wenk is a trade name for knives made by FANACU (Fábrica Nacional de Cuchilleria Uruguay). I wonder if there isn't a sort of play on words with Franz Wenk standing for a sly French wink.

Hello RobT,

Thank you very much, a seemingly fact I wasn't aware of. But a short online search shows that there the name "Franz Wenk" only pops up by Cuchillo Criollo knives. Worth a better research.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Lee

Well, RobT has done a fine job of revealing where that particular blade was made!

Struggling through Dagas de Plata with my virtually nonexistent Spanish language skills, I found a reproduction of a catalog page showing complete knives of various styles available from a German supplier (p. 12). Chapter 7 details the development of the blade making center of Tandil, starting in the later part of the first half of the 20th century. I suspect the vast majority of knives used imported blades that were locally mounted up until that time, and that since then the knives have increasingly become a completely South American product.

You are correct Lee, it seems that there was at the beginning an import from Solingen and Sheffield blades to South America and became later an own production under cooperation or bought names to a own production of blades.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Yesterday I get the information, that I am the winner from this Brazilian punal,
the description say:

Fine silver dagger (silverwork - probably South America), blade marked 'Salva Vida' ('Save Life') and 'G.L.& M.'; Length 33 cm (blade can be moved at the top - guide may be missing)

Pictures are the auction pictures.

[Sajen]

By this example is the chain still present about which Mr. Domenech write in his answer to Norman about his shown knife short time ago:
"You can observe that there is a little hook in the end of the sheath hook. Also there is a small hole in the decoration of the tip of sheath called "batiente" in Spanish.

This is so because this type of knives had a small chain going permanently attached to the hole in the extreme of sheath and other end of chain had a small ring to hung on the little hook.

This was a custom only used in Brazil to secure the sheath to the belt and avoid loosing the knife while riding a horse. Rarely the chain is still present in these old knives today but some knives still have them."

Here the thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=28532

Sadly is only one side pictured. Soon as I have received it I will post more pictures.

[Fernando K]

hello sajen

this is not a dagger, but a "facon". It has a single edged side and a counter-edge on the other side, at the end, for approximately one third of its length. It has, like the dagger, a defense, in this case an "S". The tang is in the center of the blade, which makes it different from any knife, which has the tang on the opposite side of the edge.

affectionately

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Sajen

...there was at the beginning an import from Solingen and Sheffield blades to South America...

Additionally, I learned from Dagas de Plata that the importer of the knife marked "Armeria de Paris" (later, from the early 20th century, called Armeria Carlos Rasetti) in post two above, had sourced these blades from Belgium. Decades ago, the husband of a friend of my late mother, who was born and raised in Argentina reportedly showed great delight when my mother showed him that knife and he showed great proficiency in brandishing it as he reminisced about that great Buenos Aires emporium he remembered from his youth. See: https://www.landofborchardt.com/1931cr_catalog.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

this is not a dagger, but a "facon". It has a single edged side and a counter-edge on the other side, at the end, for approximately one third of its length. It has, like the dagger, a defense, in this case an "S". The tang is in the center of the blade, which makes it different from any knife, which has the tang on the opposite side of the edge.

Hello Fernando,

Yes, you are correct, it's a facon, my fault!

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Lee

Additionally, I learned from Dagas de Plata that the importer of the knife marked "Armeria de Paris" (later, from the early 20th century, called Armeria Carlos Rasetti) in post two above, had sourced these blades from Belgium. Decades ago, the husband of a friend of my late mother, who was born and raised in Argentina reportedly showed great delight when my mother showed him that knife and he showed great proficiency in brandishing it as he reminisced about that great Buenos Aires emporium he remembered from his youth. See: https://www.landofborchardt.com/1931cr_catalog.html

Hello Lee,
Yes, better I had written "produced in Europe" instead of Solingen and Sheffield.

Regards,
Detlef

[Lee]

I bought this puñal at a nearby semiannual flea market yesterday. I believe that I may well have walked past it previously, but I was trudging the fields alone yesterday and taking my time. The blade is 9¼ inches with some file work on the spine, evidence of repeated honing and a mark like the top of a handled trophy cup, either lightly struck or partially worn away. I could not find this mark in Dagas de Plata. At first the silverwork seemed a bit crude to me, but its appeal has grown. The cross section of the handle is very rectangular and the two narrower sides are not decorated. I am not sure that I believe the tiny '900' marks. The mounts have taken a few dings and I suspect it has been dropped onto a hard surface hilt first on at least one occasion.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Lee

I am not sure that I believe the tiny '900' marks...

Well, it should (only) be .

.