Java keris thoughts

SidJ · 21st January 2023, 02:45 PM

Hi
This keris came.my way. Any thoughts on the pamor and age? The blade rings like a bell when tapped. The dress seems quite good as is the mendak.

Jean · 21st January 2023, 03:04 PM

I have not much to say about the blade but the front part of the atasan (top part of the warangka) seems to have been cut so it looks odd.

SidJ · 21st January 2023, 03:23 PM

Yes that part broke off and it has been cut and flattened. It is an old repair and a fairly typical way of dealing with this as I understand it.

David · 21st January 2023, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

Yes that part broke off and it has been cut and flattened. It is an old repair and a fairly typical way of dealing with this as I understand it.

While i agree that i have seen breaks "repaired" in this manner before i am not sure that this would be considered to be an appropriate way of dealing with such a problem in cultural usage. I have always understood the ladrang form as "formal dress" and it seems to me that within Javanese society such dress would more typically be replaced for use at formal occasions. I do realize that the owner may not have necessarily had the funds for such a replacement, but question if they would still wear this dress as is. Does anyone know?

SidJ · 21st January 2023, 11:40 PM

The mendak on this keris is gold with a setting of stones or glass. Does this add anything to the appraisal?

SidJ · 21st January 2023, 11:51 PM

Bottom of ganja

A. G. Maisey · 22nd January 2023, 01:13 AM

Sid, the sirah cecak (lizard head, front part of gonjo), can be classified as Tuban, if the back part has the right shape it can be confirmed as Tuban, so please, back of gonjo pic.

This is obviously old, it is probably Tuban, very conservative age estimate:- pre-1850.

The loss of the front of the wrongko atasan disqualifies this wrongko from use as a dress keris. The other ways of attending to this break are to adhere a new piece of wood & re-carve, or to reshape the entire wrongko into a "kacir" form.

The mendak looks more like gold over brass, to confirm that it is in fact gold you need to demount it & and test scrapings from the inside of large ring, ie, the ring that contacts the hilt.

Actual gold mendaks are very scarce, they are normally set with true precious stones, usually diamonds or rubies, but not of high quality, they are normally of very fine workmanship.

rasdan · 22nd January 2023, 11:28 AM

Hi Sid.

I am not a Javanese keris hilt connoisseur or specialist, but I must say, the hilt looks quite nice. Probably you can share the straight on photo of the cecakan (the stylised face carving) too?

Usually good handles will have a dudukan i.e the recessed base of the hilt for the mendak but this one does not have it. (Good Solo handles most of the time will have a recessed base, but not all hilt with recessed base are good handles - this is my impression at the current time) Probably somebody flatten it off to fit in a different mendak.

In fact, the entire setup of this keris is quite good if part of the warangka was not broken off. Somebody probably loved this keris very much at some point of its existence.

SidJ · 22nd January 2023, 12:20 PM

Ganja pic No 2.

SidJ · 22nd January 2023, 12:37 PM

Further pics.

SidJ · 22nd January 2023, 12:50 PM

Further pictures attached

rasdan · 22nd January 2023, 01:08 PM

Thanks Sid. It is a very nice hilt IMHO. If the carvings are symmetric, this is not not something we encounter too often. Most hilts are village quality. I think this one is not.

SidJ · 22nd January 2023, 03:44 PM

Hi Rasdan
Thanks. Ive had a look at some other keris I have and they all have similar symmetrical faces on the hilts. I dont know what to make of this.

rasdan · 23rd January 2023, 12:53 AM

Hi Sid, It depends on the level of symmetry, the flow of the curves and the cleanliness of the carving. The photo you provide does not give that view, but I think it is nice enough to be above average.

Now I don't know what real high level kraton carving should like, this is my impression what is nice. Below are 3 cecekan. 1 is new, common and OK and one is village quality, the one with selut is a nicer one - to my eyes. Of course we need to see the hilt as a whole too, but this is just regarding the cecekan carving.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd January 2023, 10:03 PM

Sid, I think I'd go with a Tuban-Mataram classification, ie, tangguh.

The overall form fits, the pamor fits, the gonjo sort of fits.

When we classify with blades that are not really intended to be classified, it always becomes an opinion based on the balance of indicators, in this case, I think Tuban-Mataram fits pretty OK.

SidJ · 24th January 2023, 10:50 AM

Hi Alan
Forgive me but how does Tuban- Mataram relate to the age estimate of circa 1850? Does this mean pre 1850?
Best
Sid

A. G. Maisey · 24th January 2023, 11:32 AM

Sid, I always try to be very conservative with age estimates.

I gave my age estimate as pre-1850, not circa 1850.

I based that age estimate on the overall style & appearance of the blade, not upon any blade classification. I was trying to be realistic.

If you want a tangguh belief system estimate of age, well then, Tuban-Mataram means anytime from the beginning of the second kingdom of Mataram through to the 19th century, however, I believe most True Believers in Tangguh infallibility would probably place this blade into pre-1800 at least.

Sid, the Tangguh System is not at all easy to understand, it can assist with age estimates when very high quality blades in very good condition are involved, the nearer we come to the present time, the more those estimates might be accurate, but most of the time with more humble blades, tangguh is a classification based upon style, and that style relates more to geographic point of origin than era.

The True Believers will tell you I'm talking through the top of my head. My own teacher would tell you I'm talking through the top of my head.

Maybe I am.

You make up your own mind.

It all comes down to whether we want an age estimate based upon reality & experience, or if we want an age estimate based upon belief.

Incidentally, Pajajaran is another good possibility, but I'm looking at a screen image, I do not have it in my hand, and I would need it in my hand before I'd place a bet on the Pajajaran horse.

SidJ · 25th January 2023, 04:59 PM

Thanks Alan
I dont know what Pajajaran means but assume its also a time period?

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2023, 08:10 PM

In Central Javanese keris belief of the1980's -'90's Pajajaran I was a a West Javanese (Sunda) kingdom that existed approximately concurrent with Majapahit.

That kingdom gave its name to a West Jawa era, and then a keris tangguh classification of Pajajaran I, Pajajaran II & Pajajaran III.

Somebody who absolutely believes that the tangguh belief system indicates a time period will also believe that a keris blade classifiable as "Pajajaran" dates from the era of historic Pajajaran.

This is what I was taught, and in the presence of my teachers and other True Believers, I also believed this, and in the presence of any True Believers today I am quite prepared to believe the same thing:- at home, in my village, I believe the same things my grandfather believes. Never argue with Granpa.

However, realistically these very old tangguh classifications are stylistically based, and a keris blade of that style will in most cases originate in the geographic area related to the name of the ancient historic political entity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakuan_Pajajaran

SidJ · 25th January 2023, 10:43 PM

Ok. So you could have a Pajajaran era styled blade that is made in more recent times or at least later than the time period of the Pajajaran era?

A. G. Maisey · 25th January 2023, 11:23 PM

Yes.

That is the reason why I always date conservatively, especially from photographs and screen images.

If a very experienced keris person, whether dealer or collector or student, handles a keris, and if he can keep it for a few days he might be able to give it a more precise date, maybe within , say, 100 years or so with older items, but from pictures & screen images there is no possibility of getting feedback, nor of doing the very detailed examination necessary to form a solid opinion.

With this keris, one thing that is very indicative of Pajajaran is the material, but we need a lot more than that.

21st January 2023, 02:45 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Java keris thoughts Hi This keris came.my way. Any thoughts on the pamor and age? The blade rings like a bell when tapped. The dress seems quite good as is the mendak. Attached Images

21st January 2023, 11:40 PM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	The mendak on this keris is gold with a setting of stones or glass. Does this add anything to the appraisal? Attached Images

21st January 2023, 11:51 PM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Bottom of ganja Attached Images

22nd January 2023, 12:20 PM	#9
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Ganja pic No 2. Attached Images

22nd January 2023, 12:37 PM	#10
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Further hilt pics Further pics. Attached Images

21st January 2023, 03:04 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I have not much to say about the blade but the front part of the atasan (top part of the warangka) seems to have been cut so it looks odd.

21st January 2023, 03:23 PM	#3
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Yes that part broke off and it has been cut and flattened. It is an old repair and a fairly typical way of dealing with this as I understand it.

22nd January 2023, 01:13 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Sid, the sirah cecak (lizard head, front part of gonjo), can be classified as Tuban, if the back part has the right shape it can be confirmed as Tuban, so please, back of gonjo pic. This is obviously old, it is probably Tuban, very conservative age estimate:- pre-1850. The loss of the front of the wrongko atasan disqualifies this wrongko from use as a dress keris. The other ways of attending to this break are to adhere a new piece of wood & re-carve, or to reshape the entire wrongko into a "kacir" form. The mendak looks more like gold over brass, to confirm that it is in fact gold you need to demount it & and test scrapings from the inside of large ring, ie, the ring that contacts the hilt. Actual gold mendaks are very scarce, they are normally set with true precious stones, usually diamonds or rubies, but not of high quality, they are normally of very fine workmanship.

22nd January 2023, 11:28 AM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Sid. I am not a Javanese keris hilt connoisseur or specialist, but I must say, the hilt looks quite nice. Probably you can share the straight on photo of the cecakan (the stylised face carving) too? Usually good handles will have a dudukan i.e the recessed base of the hilt for the mendak but this one does not have it. (Good Solo handles most of the time will have a recessed base, but not all hilt with recessed base are good handles - this is my impression at the current time) Probably somebody flatten it off to fit in a different mendak. In fact, the entire setup of this keris is quite good if part of the warangka was not broken off. Somebody probably loved this keris very much at some point of its existence.

22nd January 2023, 12:50 PM	#11
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Further hilt pics Further pictures attached

22nd January 2023, 01:08 PM	#12
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Thanks Sid. It is a very nice hilt IMHO. If the carvings are symmetric, this is not not something we encounter too often. Most hilts are village quality. I think this one is not.

22nd January 2023, 03:44 PM	#13
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Hi Rasdan Thanks. Ive had a look at some other keris I have and they all have similar symmetrical faces on the hilts. I dont know what to make of this.

23rd January 2023, 12:53 AM	#14
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Sid, It depends on the level of symmetry, the flow of the curves and the cleanliness of the carving. The photo you provide does not give that view, but I think it is nice enough to be above average. Now I don't know what real high level kraton carving should like, this is my impression what is nice. Below are 3 cecekan. 1 is new, common and OK and one is village quality, the one with selut is a nicer one - to my eyes. Of course we need to see the hilt as a whole too, but this is just regarding the cecekan carving. Attached Images Last edited by rasdan; 23rd January 2023 at 01:09 AM.

23rd January 2023, 10:03 PM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Sid, I think I'd go with a Tuban-Mataram classification, ie, tangguh. The overall form fits, the pamor fits, the gonjo sort of fits. When we classify with blades that are not really intended to be classified, it always becomes an opinion based on the balance of indicators, in this case, I think Tuban-Mataram fits pretty OK.

24th January 2023, 10:50 AM	#16
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Hi Alan Forgive me but how does Tuban- Mataram relate to the age estimate of circa 1850? Does this mean pre 1850? Best Sid

24th January 2023, 11:32 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Sid, I always try to be very conservative with age estimates. I gave my age estimate as pre-1850, not circa 1850. I based that age estimate on the overall style & appearance of the blade, not upon any blade classification. I was trying to be realistic. If you want a tangguh belief system estimate of age, well then, Tuban-Mataram means anytime from the beginning of the second kingdom of Mataram through to the 19th century, however, I believe most True Believers in Tangguh infallibility would probably place this blade into pre-1800 at least. Sid, the Tangguh System is not at all easy to understand, it can assist with age estimates when very high quality blades in very good condition are involved, the nearer we come to the present time, the more those estimates might be accurate, but most of the time with more humble blades, tangguh is a classification based upon style, and that style relates more to geographic point of origin than era. The True Believers will tell you I'm talking through the top of my head. My own teacher would tell you I'm talking through the top of my head. Maybe I am. You make up your own mind. It all comes down to whether we want an age estimate based upon reality & experience, or if we want an age estimate based upon belief. Incidentally, Pajajaran is another good possibility, but I'm looking at a screen image, I do not have it in my hand, and I would need it in my hand before I'd place a bet on the Pajajaran horse.

25th January 2023, 04:59 PM	#18
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Thanks Alan I dont know what Pajajaran means but assume its also a time period?

25th January 2023, 08:10 PM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	In Central Javanese keris belief of the1980's -'90's Pajajaran I was a a West Javanese (Sunda) kingdom that existed approximately concurrent with Majapahit. That kingdom gave its name to a West Jawa era, and then a keris tangguh classification of Pajajaran I, Pajajaran II & Pajajaran III. Somebody who absolutely believes that the tangguh belief system indicates a time period will also believe that a keris blade classifiable as "Pajajaran" dates from the era of historic Pajajaran. This is what I was taught, and in the presence of my teachers and other True Believers, I also believed this, and in the presence of any True Believers today I am quite prepared to believe the same thing:- at home, in my village, I believe the same things my grandfather believes. Never argue with Granpa. However, realistically these very old tangguh classifications are stylistically based, and a keris blade of that style will in most cases originate in the geographic area related to the name of the ancient historic political entity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakuan_Pajajaran

25th January 2023, 10:43 PM	#20
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Ok. So you could have a Pajajaran era styled blade that is made in more recent times or at least later than the time period of the Pajajaran era?

25th January 2023, 11:23 PM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Yes. That is the reason why I always date conservatively, especially from photographs and screen images. If a very experienced keris person, whether dealer or collector or student, handles a keris, and if he can keep it for a few days he might be able to give it a more precise date, maybe within , say, 100 years or so with older items, but from pictures & screen images there is no possibility of getting feedback, nor of doing the very detailed examination necessary to form a solid opinion. With this keris, one thing that is very indicative of Pajajaran is the material, but we need a lot more than that.