Aceh Kris for comment

[Cerjak]

I have this one from long time and had never studied it.I found a kris that seems very similar to mine illustrated in "Tammens' De Kris vol. 1"
I would like to know what other menbers think of this and have some advice on how to clean the blade if necessary.
Best
Cerjak

[Cerjak]

"Tammens' De Kris vol. 1".

[Sajen]

I doubt that your keris is an Aceh keris! The scabbard is very different from the shown example by Tammens.
I would place your example to the coastal area from Sumatra.

Regards,
Detlef

[kai]

Hello Cerjak,

I have this one from long time and had never studied it. I found a kris that seems very similar to mine illustrated in "Tammens' De Kris vol. 1"

Tammens based his attribution on the scabbard; whatever one thinks of this notion, your scabbard is of a different type. Thus, let's focus on your piece:

The blade is imported from Java; it may exhibit contrasting pamor and respond well to traditional warangan "washing"/treatment. OTOH, most Bugis-influenced communities nowadays prefer to keep their blades only gently cleaned without staining though. Also the blade lost quite a lot of substance and might have lost most of its original pamor.

The hilt is a very nicely carved example. Close-ups from all sides may help to place it more reliably. Still, these traveled or were traded widely.

The selut is a bit unusual and not the best fit for this hilt; these often got swapped and recycled though.

IMHO, the scabbard does not point towards Sumatra. I'd be inclined to place it within Sulawesi or Sumbawa (however, fittings also traveled - possibly with their seafaring owners). The two copper(?) bands suggest repair attempts. Close-ups of the wood might help, too.

To sum things up, you certainly have a keris worn in a culture influenced by Gowa or Bone/Bugis culture (expat communities as well as many Malay and other communities receiving quite substantial influx/influence).

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Crossed post with Kai!
Like Kai said, your keris is clearly Bugis influenced, Sulawesi or Sumbawa could be possible as well.

[Cerjak]

Hello Detlef and Kai
many thanks for your comments ,here some extra pictures, unfortunately of poor quality ,of course the copper bands are crude repair.
What could be the age of this kris ?
Best
Cerjak

[kai]

Hello Cerjak,

What could be the age of this kris ?

The hilt and scabbard are most likely 19th century IMHO.

For the probably even older blade, we'd need input from Alan, I guess.

You need to post a hi-res pic of the full blade with the tip pointing up and the tapering end of the base pointing towards the right side (also try to have the separating line between the blade and the end piece exactly horizontal - the wave doesn't make this any easier). Also a close-up of the base of the blade (include all features) will be important. For both pics, make sure that you take pics from exactly vertical to the plane of the blade (it helps to remove the hilt - avoid any distortions and angled shots!)

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

........... and have some advice on how to clean the blade if necessary.

Hello Cerjak,

I can't say something regarding the blade, I need to see better pictures. But with your new pictures from the scabbard and the hilt I see a lot of dirt which I would carefully remove, the scabbard I would clean with 000 steel wool and give it some oil (I personally use linseed oil).
The hilt shows as well a lot of dirt in the cavities, I would give it a bath in oil to soften the dirt and after this brush it with a hard toothbrush, repeat it until all dirt is gone. Both, scabbard and hilt can get polished after this with a soft cloth.
And I would look for a better fitting pendokok.
Regards,
Detlef

[Cerjak]

blade pictures

[Cerjak]

Hello Kai and Sajen
I hope these pictures can help identify the blade.
I will also clean the handle and scabbard according to your advice.
Best
CERJAK

[Jean]

The blade looks old (19th century or earlier), it is very worn out at the wadidang (lower back) side, the pamor is sanak (indistinct), and the blade does not match well with the Bugis style scabbard but it could be an old combination
(check for recent carving inside the scabbard slot). The carved hilt seems in rekko style from South Sulawesi.

[Gustav]

The blade with some certainty is older then 19th cent., it originally comes from different Keris culture, as the other forumites observed, but the sheath was obviously made for this blade and have been together for a quite long time (the same perhaps could be true for the ferrule).

I would be cautios to overclean the sheath (and to some extent the hilt), as you will end with a completely different appearance and much bigger contrast of wood and metal parts. I sometimes would let a piece almost as it is, and for me this would be such a piece.

[Paul B.]

Fully agree with Gustav. You would ruin the old patina if you overdo the cleaning. The blade looks better now.
Could you show us the complete sheath frontally in combination with the unsheated blade?

[Cerjak]

Dear Gustav and Jean
Thank you for your interesting comments, examining the slot of the KRIS scabbard I can see that it fits the shape of the ganja perfectly and shows no trace of recent carving. I can safely assume that this scabbard was made especially for this blade, certainly to replace the previous one.
I would like to know what are the characteristics of this blade that allow to date it from the 18th century.
Best Regards
Cerjak

[Gustav]

Cerjak, there is very little left of any features of the blade, which would allow to place it in time, it is in relic condition, the surface is treated in a way, which don't give a possibility to appreciate or say something about the iron or Pamor, if there was any or still would be any traces of it preserved. Perhaps at some point in its history the surface rust was removed manually.

But that what is left - the outline of Sogokan, how it curves at the Gonjo towards Kepet Urang, the sharpness of these outlines, the central ridge (Odo-Odo and Janur), the clean Gusen, where it is preserved, the shape of Luk and the Kruwingan going to the ninth Luk - says, it was a good quality blade, and it is or it is made to resemble blades, which originated around 16th cent.

I cannot be certain it really comes from 16th or 17th cent., but I am quite sure it is pre-1800.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

I would be cautios to overclean the sheath (and to some extent the hilt), as you will end with a completely different appearance and much bigger contrast of wood and metal parts. I sometimes would let a piece almost as it is, and for me this would be such a piece.

I agree this shouldn't be over cleaned, but if it were mine i would still clean it up a bit. Dirt should not be confused with patina and both the sheath and hilt are dirty. Clean and oil them carefully and they will look much better without losing the patina. I'd use a soft toothbrush and oil to clean up the hilt.
Warangan may or may not revel much pamor. Would be inclined to leave it as is.
What has been described as a selut here looks more like an oversized mendak to me. If i were to change anything about this keris it might be to find a more appropriate pendokok. This piece, while interesting, just looks a bit awkward.
I agree with Gustav. This was a well made keris and is probably 18th century.

[Sajen]

I agree with David, I've not written that the scabbard should get overcleaned but I see a lot of small scratches and a lot of dirt on the scabbard, this is not patination!

[Cerjak]

I think everything has been said about this kris and the information gathered far exceeds my expectations.
I also realise that the study of kris requires extensive knowledge and therefore years of passion and research. The answers I got showed me that there are real experts in this forum who were kind enough to spend time answering a neophite.
So thank you all!
Best Cerjak

[A. G. Maisey]

I've held back on comment on this keris.

My reason is that I've been waiting for somebody comment and offer an opinion on the weird grain in the metal.

I'm wondering is we might have a material that varies from the usual externally sourced iron from China.

Maybe wootz?

There have been examples of wootz being used in keris blades.

As for origin, not a lot to go on, but I lean to Banten. That distinct odo-odo (ada-ada) running the full length of the blade does not occur in many classifications, and in view of the obvious age of this keris, and its placement outside Jawa, I reckon Banten might be a pretty fair guess.

[Gustav]

Alan, I have thought about the possibility of wootz, but:

doesn`t the grain in this picture behave a bit more like a normal material grain above the Poyuhan? Also in the full length pictures the we see long vertical strains of grain, especially in the upper half of blade. Would wootz also behave like that?

Would a Keris with a Slorok of wootz have Pamor (I have so far seen only Keris entirely made out of wootz)? I ask, because this blade seems to have few small patches of other material. Is it possible to weld wootz together with other material for a Javanese Pande?

Regarding classification - I have seen a picture of Sorsoran of a blade, which is indeed very close to what is left of features on this blade (I have no idea about other indicators) in quite small details, and it was given Tangguh Sedayu by Pak Pauzan.

Does this blade have some characteristics of Tangguh Sedayu in your oppinion?

[Gustav]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I agree with David, I've not written that the scabbard should get overcleaned but I see a lot of small scratches and a lot of dirt on the scabbard, this is not patination!

Detlef, this is how it would happen with me :

I want to get rid of the obvious black patches of dirt on wooden parts. I do it. Then the now much more obvious dirt on metal parts starts to annoy me. I try to find a new balance of still left patination on wood and metal parts... and so on. I would surely end up with something, which would look and feel artificial to me, because I have a memory of the piece how it looked before cleaning...

But I surely am much less experienced and less skilled then you in this.

[A. G. Maisey]

Gustav, as far as wootz goes, I question marked it.

There are a number of types of iron, and looking at the photos of this blade, what I believe I can see is a type of iron that varies from the norm. I might think differently if it was in my hand, but I only have photos to look at, not the actual blade.

This material is not the usual.

Bloomery iron? Maybe. But maybe something else. I don't know.

You assert it is not wootz. You're probably right.

But it is certainly not the usual type of material I'm used to seeing. At this point I'm not prepared to offer an opinion on what it is, I was hoping somebody might have been able offer a valid opinion.

Maybe all I'm seeing is the result of some sort of unique corrosion or cleaning, I don't know.

That is the reason for the question mark.

Can wootz be welded with wrought iron?

I've never had any wootz that I could try that with, but yes, I believe with careful fire control it could be. Put it this way, a lot of wootz blades are welded to an ordinary iron base & tang.

Could this blade be supported as Sedayu classification?

In my opinion no, and for the same reason that it cannot be supported as Banten, or Blambangan, or Surakarta:- the condition is too poor and it is out of stain. Yes, there are some characteristics that might be able to be interpreted as Sedayu, or as half a dozen other classifications, but for a blade in this condition we can only look at the remnant indicators and perhaps lean more towards one classification than another.

But that said, I still tend towards Banten, mind you:- I am not arguing for Banten, I am only saying that if this were in much better condition I believe I could argue for Banten, thus, I tend towards Banten. Not only because of the remaining physical features, but because historically Banten was much more prolific than the other possibilities, and it was also centered around an international trading port.

[Gustav]

Alan, thank you very much for your response.

I also noticed the unusual blade surface, and one of possibilities I thought of also was wootz. So I just asked you the questions I had about this possibility after you indicated it as such.

My thought about the surface was, as I wrote, manual cleaning. I meant with it cleaning in dry condition, with something like an awl. For me especially Gonjo and Blumbangan look cleaned that way. But that option alone cannot be the answer - as you say, the material itself is unusual.

(By the way, at the upper ridge of this picture, on left side of the blade, there is one of the few distinct patches of different material I noticed. There seems to be another bigger one at the last Luk on the reverse side. I think, it's Pamor material and what we mainly see is just the Slorok left.)

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Detlef, this is how it would happen with me :

I want to get rid of the obvious black patches of dirt on wooden parts. I do it. Then the now much more obvious dirt on metal parts starts to annoy me. I try to find a new balance of still left patination on wood and metal parts... and so on. I would surely end up with something, which would look and feel artificial to me, because I have a memory of the piece how it looked before cleaning...

But I surely am much less experienced and less skilled then you in this.

Hello Gustav,

I know what you mean! I don't know if you ever have worked with 000 steel wool, it's not hardly abrasive and what it removes will be only very recent dirt. The scratches and blotches are very distracting in my humble opinion.
So I am every time very careful with my tips regarding cleaning and maintenance.
I agree with you 100% that an overcleaning by this keris would be a shame. But the handle should be clean in the cavities.

Regards,
Detlef