Where does this blade come from?

[milandro]

I have bought a blade with only the hilt ( Sumatran Solo hilt) quite a nice one methinks.

Anyway I will provide the blade with a new sarong or adapt an old one if I can find a suitable fitting but I am , in my ignorance, unsure of how you could class this “ wilah” , is it a Javanese wilah?

Initially I thought it was a keleng but I am not sure it will be, this is a shot at the cleaning stage

Somebody locally called it an “ High Keris” and said it was probably from before 1800 and called the Ganja kelab lintah. Another person fasked a friend in Indonesia and he said that this was a sempono panjul dapur. They all seemed to find it an interesting blade.

Again I am a beginner at all this.

[Jean]

Hello,
This looks an old blade but not a masterpiece nor a "high kris" IMO, the dapur is not a Javanese standard and the carving & pamor pattern look of common quality.
Regarding the geographic origin, my best guess is Madura or East Java but I am not sure.

[milandro]

thank you, well, I am an humble beginner and one has to begin somewhere.

Strange though how different people ( I mentioned those things because a local expert of the Keris Studiegroep ) make different assessments

[Jean]

Originally Posted by milandro

Strange though how different people ( I mentioned those things because a local expert of the Keris Studiegroep ) make different assessments

Well, let us see what other members have to say about this blade, this is just my preliminary opinion from the pic and in uncleaned condition
The curved ganja is rather in dhungkul style according to the book Keris Jawa.
Regards

[kai]

Strange though how different people ( I mentioned those things because a local expert of the Keris Studiegroep ) make different assessments

Welcome to the world of the keris and the even weirder world of its aficionados!

Criteria for judging present highly moving targets, especially if you move from one community to the next...

There certainly is a difference between blades deemed low end but genuine/traditional vs "interesting" vs quality vs high-end though! (Real high-end blades are hardly ever seen in public and may cost more than a new Ferrari...)

This blade I'd place in the interesting category: It exhibits some unusual features like 3 fullers (if I interpret the pics correctly), some effort put into it (like the wavy gonjo and greneng), and also subpar features like the flat "ridges" and other base features. Some of the latter may be due to being worn down or possibly even overzealous cleaning attempts with abrasives. I see laminations which will most likely show up after warangan (the contrast might be low but I'd give it a try).

This blade does not seem to originate from Java - it seems to have a Malay feel and could well be from Sumatra.

Please share the hilt, too!

Regards,
Kai

[Jean]

BTW how long is the blade (excluding the pesi?).

[Ganapati]

It's a very nice blade congrats

[A. G. Maisey]

I think I'm on the same page as Jean with this keris.

If I had it in my hand, and if it was in stain, I might be able to put a reasonably accurate age on it, but it deviates quite a bit from the norm and I cannot read the material when it is out of stain & in a photo.

Best I could offer would be probably pre-1850.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by kai

This blade I'd place in the interesting category: It exhibits some unusual features like 3 fullers (if I interpret the pics correctly)....
This blade does not seem to originate from Java - it seems to have a Malay feel and could well be from Sumatra.

Please share the hilt, too!

Hello Kai, thanks for taking the time to comment.

When I bought this keris I thought the blade was interesting and precisely for the 3 fullers and the dapur and ganja shape. Ik came without any sarong but despite my inexperience in identifying things ( I am making friends within the Dutch Keris community and some, such as the volks here, kindly) I felt attracted towards is.

Of course another important thing was that I didn’t came from a shop (hence the affordable price) I am al too aware that buyng from shops or known collectors or their heirs delivers much better and older keris but I am not in that balpark, so I am collecting within my limited means.

You’ve asked pictures of the hilt, I took them. It seems a nice Solo hilt. It wil be cleaned a bit better.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by kai

Welcome to the world of the keris and the even weirder world of its aficionados!

Criteria for judging present highly moving targets, especially if you move from one community to the next...

There certainly is a difference between blades deemed low end but genuine/traditional vs "interesting" vs quality vs high-end though! (Real high-end blades are hardly ever seen in public and may cost more than a new Ferrari...)

This blade I'd place in the interesting category: It exhibits some unusual features like 3 fullers (if I interpret the pics correctly), some effort put into it (like the wavy gonjo and greneng), and also subpar features like the flat "ridges" and other base features. Some of the latter may be due to being worn down or possibly even overzealous cleaning attempts with abrasives. I see laminations which will most likely show up after warangan (the contrast might be low but I'd give it a try).

This blade does not seem to originate from Java - it seems to have a Malay feel and could well be from Sumatra.

Please share the hilt, too!

Regards,
Kai

@Kai, You saw the hilt ( sorry the length will have to wait because I didn’t measure it before sending to wash and now it is not in my possession but it is rather shorter than all the Javanese krisses I own).

Despite my obvious ignorance of many things concerning the krisses, I too have the impression this was a Malay influenced blade. You are right yes 3 fullers , I am not sure there are flat ridges but that may be due to the rather poor photography (it was a cut out from a telephone shot) nowhere near the quality of a camera shot.

It would be nice to determine whether this is indeed a Malay blade so that , comes the time to find a sarong, I’d be able to work in that direction.

I have a bugis gandar ( no warangka I am afraid) and maybe I could find a warangka in that style but it is very difficult to find parts in general but even more Malay parts in the NL.

[David]

I agree with what Alan said about trying to judge this keris before it is properly cleaned and stained. I suggest you post more photos once you get the blade back after Warangan treatment.
The hilt that you show is very nice, made of select wood. But I am also having trouble placing this as definitely being a Javanese blade. Hopefully we can tell more after warangan.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by David

I agree with what Alan said about trying to judge this keris before it is properly cleaned and stained. I suggest you post more photos once you get the blade back after Warangan treatment.
The hilt that you show is very nice, made of select wood. But I am also having trouble placing this as definitely being a Javanese blade. Hopefully we can tell more after warangan.

Thank you, I will certainly come back after the blade gets back to me (perhaps even earlier if the expert is sending me any pictures, he usually does, he is very very nice showing videos of the process too).

I would actually be even more thrilled to discover that this blade isn’t Javanese that if it would be, because really most krisses here are Javanese then at quite a distance you find Balinese and even scarcer Buginese. The Palembang kris that I have acquired is pretty rare (at least these days) here in the NL.

[milandro]

Well the blade has been washed and although it is not Keleng doesn’t display a great deal op pamor, according to the expert washer this is rather typical of old baldes and perhaps even of Malay blades.

Meanwhile, since this balde came with the wrong hilt and no sarong , I bought the most correct ones that I could find through a Javanese agent , he told me that they are not easy to find there at all and I know it is next to impossible where I live in the NL.

I will get back to you with more images , first of the blade and then, of the finished Keris once all the parts will arrive

[Jean]

Originally Posted by milandro

Well the blade has been washed and although it is not Keleng doesn’t display a great deal of pamor, according to the expert washer this is rather typical of old blades and perhaps even of Malay blades.

Meanwhile, since this blade came with the wrong hilt and no sarong , I bought the most correct ones that I could find through a Javanese agent , he told me that they are not easy to find there at all and I know it is next to impossible where I live in the NL.

I will get back to you with more images , first of the blade and then, of the finished Keris once all the parts will arrive

Hello Milandro,
I am not too surprised by the cleaning results, is the ganja looking similar to the blade? Which "more correct" sarong & hilt did you find?
Regards

[milandro]

Yes the Ganja is similar to the blade (I will add a picture but it is a rather low res image, ik will make better ones next week when the baldes I have commissioned to be washed will finally get back to me).

I bought the most correct (not more but most, probably there are more correct ones but I couldn’t find them so I didn't buy them) that I could find, I was offered a choice of two, one very similar to my Palembang keris and this other more Flashy one , this one was “correct” for this blade, at least according to the advise of the seller and of a friend who advises me in these kind of things.

We shall see what happens, the proces of ordering stuff like this at a distance without seeing the end product is rather unnerving, also the fitting of the balde will relay on some uncertainty even if I will take pictures and add measurements

[Jean]

Thank you Milandro, the blade does not look bad even if the pamor pattern is not much contrasted.
So you have selected a new Sumatrese style dress, it may be a bit difficult to match the curved ganja with the sarong but hopefully it will look OK.
Regards

[milandro]

Let me get back to this

In the end I did go for another sarong ( and also a different hilt ) since the one that was shown about was too short for the balde.

I may put it in another Sarong bu this is not the object of my returning here to this thread.

Would someone care to comment about the Dapur? Could this be a form megantoro ?

[Jean]

This is not a Megantara dapur (see pic) which is a Javanese dapur by the way.
Regards

[milandro]

thank you, I don’t know how to call a Melayu dapur of this type.

I would still appreciate then a comment on this blade of mine then.

I am still trying to find a good sarong for it after trying one that I have had made, I started doubting

[Jean]

I am not convinced that it is a Melayu dapur. Anyway you were lucky that your proposed sarong did not fit as it was not a good match IMO

[milandro]

Thank you again jean, I will still appreciate then some indication to what the community thinks this kind of blade is and what kind of sarong would fit.
A friend of mine suggested that I use a sarong that I have and which, in his opinion, would d fit this blade better. The hilt (tinted bone ) may or may not fit the combination.

[Jean]

What is the blade length? The peculiar features of your blade are the kruwingan (the 3 long grooves), the curved ganja, the deep pejetan, the odd kembang kacang, and the indistinct pamor pattern.
The proposed sarong is in East Sumatra/ Malaysian style which is more suitable for a Bugis style blade.

[milandro]

29,5cm

I hope to be able to properly find a suitable “ dress” to this kris or I would have to make do with what is available to me.

You may have seen my recent thread on another blade. Finding “ naked” blades is not unusual but then the problem of finding suitable attributes starts

[kai]

Thanks for the additional pics & info!

Close-ups of the base of the blade would be great, too!

Regards,
Kai

[milandro]

this blade, unlike the other one, is mounted with a hilt en selut , so if you don’t mind, I won’t take them apart to avoid the fuss.

I shot two pictures which, I hope will give sufficient food for thought anyway

I have made the color lighter for the purpose of observation, but this is not the regular appearance , although it shows some differences in colors of the metal which I wouldn’t necessarily call pamor

I have aso found the outlined template which I sent the maker of the sarong to make the warangka fitting, the numbers refer to mm size in that particular area

[milandro]

I have asked a collector’s friend in Austria who asked a friend in Malaysia , according to this local person the blade in question is certainly Sumatran (as two people get 3 opinions ) , perhaps South Sumatran. He suggested a different Selut-Pendokock but in his opinion the dress I had made was better than the other one I proposed above.


I have to say that this field leaves me often puzzled with the co-existance of two many opinions and possibilities