Chinese sword for comments

[Nagawarrior]

I watched this sword on ebay recently and wanted it. I looks like an authenic chinese sword form the late 19th century, but.....a little worried about the pieces out of China in general. I saw a very similar sword at a nearby sword shop. It had the thickest damascus blade I have ever seen on a sword. Much like the one in this auction. The store owner wanted quite a bit more for it too. I would like to add a Chinese sword to my collection, I don't have one yet, and one like this looks to be affordable. What do you guys think?
Stephen*

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEDW%3AIT&rd=1

[Lew]

I would stay away from any sword coming out of Hong Kong.



Lew

[Ferguson]

I know nothing about Chinese swords. But I do know Ebay. The private bidders, and private auctions in his feedback raise a red flag to me. Good luck sir.

Steve

[Yu-Ming Chang]

Actually, this piece looks real to me. Most of the fittings (i.e. suspension bar, chape, etc) are new reproductions and poor ones at that. The guard and pommel look original (or at least old). However, the blade itself shows an higher carbon insert edge and is made of pattern welded steel with lots of slag inclusions evident in the pictures that is typical of late Qing work. (I have some thoughts about this dealer which I can share via PM, if anyone cares). I've some similar pieces in the past which, when etched had some very pretty patterns. This particular piece is pretty broken down and probably has seen a lot of abuse in it's day.

The questions is whether it was meant for use as opposed to many made for street performance or training by civilian martial artists. I have a few examples of dao that were pattern welded with insert edge AND differentially hardened with spines only a 1.5 mm thick at the forte. These according to Mr. Tom were pieces intended for performance. This piece in question looks pretty beefy, but given the amount of patina sanded off.....

[Rick]

Stephen ,
If you know nothing about Chinese swords then spend your first dollars on a book or two on the subject .

With every popular Chinese martial arts movie comes a dozen more sellers of "Antique Chinese Swords" which BTW are illegal to export from China .

If you must have a Chinese sword do not buy it from China ; instead use a reputable dealer from a country outside of China .

[fearn]

I've got a wushu-type modern jian and a couple of more upscale ones. My advice, based on the experience of buying those blades, is that it's a lot more fun to go to a shop and try out all the blades, and find one that fits you and feels good. I bought my favorite that way, and my two least favorite were bought because they were good deals.

Obviously, this isn't the right advice for someone who's collecting a genuine antique piece. On the other hand, it's a heck of a lot more fun, and you know that you'll enjoy what you buy, no matter what the price is.

F

[IainN]

That seller had a number of interesting pieces up. As mentioned all the scabbards were new, most of the hilts, and some of the guards were also new. Only one short jian actually looked like an okay piece to me with an original, or at least old, hilting job. The blade on this dao however looked decent but I dislike how all the pieces were finished. To many red flags to be out the money.

What concerned me was the other fakes the seller had listed. Also as mentioned there is the legal issue, the seller didn't mention if he had the proper papers and export license. I'm certainly not willing to paypal $3-400 to HK and then have customs nab it.

[ariel]

Knowing next to nothing about Chinese swords, I was also rather positively impressed by how "not pretty" the blade looked. The Chinese junk flooding the market often sports shiny "damascus" steel and looks as new and pristine as money can buy.
So, says I, aren't we dealing with a rare example of an honest Chinese Internet sword collector?
And then I recalled the new wave of Chinese junk: this time around they are counterfeiting not Japanese Katanas or Chinese Daos, but Russian 1881 shashkas ( I guess they noticed the prices these pieces fetch on e-bay....). The quality of those blades is rather close to what Nagawarrior shows here. I guess it took the buggers some time to realize that antique swords should look well...... old? worn out? ... to successfully fool idiots like myself.

I've been fooled not once and not twice by the e-bay bandits, and the main reason was that I WANTED a piece of obvious junk to turn out to be a " dream sleeper" (anyone else with similar experience? ).
But I firmly maintain one rule: every sword with Chinese connection is a fake until proven otherwise. And I resigned to let others do the prooving.

[VANDOO]

I WOULD NOT BUY FROM EBAY DEALERS FROM CHINA AS IT IS ILLEGAL TO SELL ANYTHING 100 YEARS OR OLDER. THE PENALTYS FOR GETTING CAUGHT SELLING REAL 100 YEAR OLD THINGS IN CHINA IS FATAL OR WORSE, SO IT IS VERY UNLIKELY THEY WOULD TAKE THE RISK. THE SALE OF REPLICAS AS OLD ANTIQUES IS ENCOURAGED AND COMMON SO THE CHANCE OF GETTING A GOOD OLD SWORD ARE ALMOST AS GOOD AS WINNING THE LOTTERY. SOME OF THE REPLICAS ARE WORTH HAVING DUE TO GOOD WORKMANSHIP BUT OTHER MORE RECENT ONES ARE VERY POORLY MADE. I USED TO BUY SOME THINGS FROM CHINA AS THEIR ART AND CRAFTSMANSHIP IS OF GOOD QUALITY AND WAS A GOOD VALUE ON EBAY A FEW YEARS AGO. BUT THEY STARTED CHARGEING A VERY HIGH SHIPPING AND HANDELING FEE ON EVERYTHING MAKEING THEM TOO EXPENSIVE SO I STOPPED BUYING ANYTHING FROM CHINA ON EBAY.

I WOULD FIND A GOOD DEALER OR ONLY BID ON EBAY ITEMS FROM CHINA COMING FROM COUNTRIES OTHER THAN CHINA. BUT BEWARE AS SOME DEALERS FROM OTHER COUNTRYS BUY IT FROM CHINA AND RESELL IT ON EBAY AND YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY SHIPPING FROM CHINA. . SO LOOK AT THE SELLERS FEEDBACK MAKE SURE THE PICTURES ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO SEE AND IF THEY LOOK LIKE THE SAME TYPE OF STUFF COMING OUT OF CHINA AVOID THEM. THE SAFEST WAY TO GET SOMETHING YOU LIKE IS TO BUY FROM A REPUTABLE DEALER. GOOD LUCK

[IainN]

Let me just sum up the actual regulations for exporting antiques for China as is my understanding of the situation.

An antique is defined by the Chinese government as made before 1949. Anything dated before 1795 is illegal for export. Period. To export something dated between 1795-1949 requires two things. A Certificate for Relics Export from the Beijing Cultural Relics Bureau, and a red wax seal will be fixed to the item. Usually government stores are set up to provide the paperwork etc... Items without the proper seal and paperwork will be seized by Chinese customs.

I have seen a few Chinese ebayers with purported photos of an export license in their listings which is claimed to allow them to export antiques and is used to try and create a sense of authenticity. This means NOTHING, what you need is that wax seal and the export papers specific to the item.

I suppose it is possible for something genuine to come from a private Chinese seller and clear customs by shear luck, but who wants to take the chance.

[Yu-Ming Chang]

Does anyone know what the standards/regulations are for antiques being shipped out of Hong Kong? I assuming that enforcement policies are somewhat different?

[VANDOO]

THINGS USED TO BE DIFFERENT BEFORE HONG KONG PASSED BACK INTO CHINESE HANDS BUT I ASSUME THE SAME LAWS NOW APPLY AS IT IS ONE COUNTRY. WHEN CHINA FIRST STARTED TO OPEN HER DOORS THERE WERE WHAT THEY CALLED (FRIENDSHIP STORES, IF I REMEMBER CORECTLY) THEY ACTUALLY SOLD SOME NICE AUTHENTIC ANTIQUES. THEY WERE THE ONLY PLACES WHERE A FORIGNER COULD BUY ANYTHING AS THEY DIDN'T ALLOW FORIGNERS TO HAVE CHINESE MONEY OR SPEND THEIR CURRENCY. I WISH I HAD BOUGHT SOME OF THE SWORDS THEN AS I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING OF THAT QUALITY OFFERED SINCE.

I HAVE SEVERAL OF THE BRONZE REPLICA WEAPONS WITH THE RED WAX SEAL FOR EXPORT BUT THAT DOSEN'T PREFORM THE MIRICLE OF MAKING THEM AN AUTHENTIC ANTIQUE BRONZE AGE SWORD. I THINK MOST OF THE GOOD PATINATED EXAMPLES WERE MADE PRE WW2 AND THEN SET IN SHOPS ALL OVER CHINA AFTER THE COMMUNIST REVOLUTION AND THEN HAD A MARKET AGAIN WHEN CHINA FINNALY OPENED HER DOORS AGAIN.

IT IS INTERESTING THAT PRE COMMUNIST CHINA HONORED ITS PAST AND COMMUNIST CHINA SAID THE PAST AND ALL OLD THINGS WERE DEAD AND NOT IMPORTANT AND THE OLD WAYS SHOULD BE FORGOTTEN. THERE NOW SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE TO ALLOW THEM TO BE PROUD SELECTIVLY OF THEIR HISTORY AND TO PASS LAWS TO KEEP ANYTHING OLD FROM BEING SOLD OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY. UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE PEOPLE MANY ITEMS ARE COMMON AND OF NO VALUE LOCALLY AND COULD BE SOLD OUTSIDE CHINA IF IT WERE LEGAL. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS AND IT IS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN THESE THOUGHTS.

[Nagawarrior]

Thanks to all for your replies. I've learned a lot. Yes Rick, I should invest in a book or two about Chinese weapons. I don't intend to buy more than one or two. If I spend money on books it kills my limited budget. But then I my lose by purchasing a bad piece. Its a catch 22 I guess. I'll also stay away from auctions located in China. I don't want to break the law or take any chances.
The sword the the local sword shop has, is exactly like the one in the auction. So if people responded well to the one in the auction I would go back and purchase it. Now I think he has one of the Newly created Chinese swords at his shop. I asked him about the cheap looking mounts verses the rather good blade. His answer was that they didn't spend much on the mounts for mass issue fighting weapons in time of war. I asked if I could take a picture and he got offended that I wasn't taking his word about the antiquity of the sword. I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time." I've had tails spun for me, let me tell you. I get that deer in the headlight look in my eyes and they know they got me. I hear what I want to hear I guess. Then regret it later after I've had time to think.
So I guess this shows one how important it is to educate yourself and only trust your own knowledge. It takes so many years to develop, and so many mistakes. I've learned much since my first collecting experiences. Thanks to all here at the forum for accelerating the learning process.

[Rick]

I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time."

Not all Naga , not all ....

[Nagawarrior]

Originally Posted by Rick

I've learned through experience not to trust any dealer. A quote from one well known dealer, "all dealers B.S. from time to time."

Not all Naga , not all ....

Your are right Rick. I can name at least one right now, **** ****** . I've dealt with him for many years. A more honest and knowledgable dealer is hard to find. I highly recommend a look at his latest catalog. Thanks for the encouragement Rick.

[Rick]

More than that ; a friend .

There are others too ; but we are not here to make public recommendations ; twouldn't be at all fair .

Recommendations belong in Swap I'd guess .

[Yu-Ming Chang]

Hi Naga,

Not an expert by any means and I apologize for any mistakes that I may be putting down here, but I've made it something of a hobby picking up these cheaper pieces and have occassionally turned up some very fine stuff. I apologize if I'm telling you things you already know, but if you are going to go back and buy from that "brick and mortar" dealer, make sure the piece in question has an insert edge (qiangang). Modern "fakers" may use pattern welded steel (the pattern of which doesn't really resemble most of the "real" antiques in my limited experience), but do not usually add the insert edge. It would become cost prohibitive to do so.

Whilst I can't say anything about the legal ramifications of buying from this dealer, or if this dealer is who I think he/she is, I can say that from the pictures provided you can clearly see the line demarcating the body of the dao and the insert edge. In fact, at some spots there are signs of either cold shuts or delamination at the weld between the body and edge.

However, this dao in question is a very typical duan dao (short saber) from the late Qing, a dime a dozen really. These things were then often used right up to the Chinese civil war (a most vivid (and depressing) picture is one reproduced in China, A New History by Fairbanks and Goldman, ISBN 0-674-11673-9, plate 39; which shows young children of the Communist forces posing with dao in hand. One of the children is holding a willowleaf type dao, but none-the-less similar to the piece in discussion). Thus the scabbard is very new and the grip is most likely a later replacement. If you wait around long enough, sometimes you see these pieces (or decorative "bazaar" versions) being sold en suite with rayskin scabbards on ebay from American sellers so....

[Yu-Ming Chang]

I forgot to ask, is anyone aware of any good references published in English about Chinese weapons aside from the introductory chapter of Mr. Scott Rodell's Chinese Swordsmanship and Mr. Philip Tom's articles?