rapier

[urbanspaceman]

Two things:
first I am almost finished my book on the history of the Shotley Bridge swordmakers; I will keep you posted.
Second, I know some of you chaps are knowledgeable with regard to swept hilt rapiers;
can anyone identify these markings for me please.

[fernando]

Excelent sword.
At first sight the name on the blade resembles one of the SAHAGUN family, but the full lettering doesn't match. Neither the mark figures in the Spanish (Toledan) smiths chart. If i may talk nonsense, it looks more like a city (place) emblem, rather than a smith's personal mark.
Hopefully experienced members may have better sugestions to offer.


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Two things:
first I am almost finished my book on the history of the Shotley Bridge swordmakers; I will keep you posted.
Second, I know some of you chaps are knowledgeable with regard to swept hilt rapiers;
can anyone identify these markings for me please.

A nice swept hilt of late 16th early 17th, and seems of course hilted in Italian/Spanish style (the depression in grip held a bar to hold wire wrap).
As far as I can tell, the blade 'inscription' is an assembly of the letters from 'SAHAGUM' (the Spanish maker and place name) interspersed with known marks and styled letters of other inscriptions.

The geometric device or sigil inside the shield is stylized type of markings well known in S. Germany, particularly Munich and Passau. There are numerous examples of the devices with the arms in various positions and configuration.
While a specific match is at this point unlikely, it seems armourers adopted variations of these without particular assignment or registration.
Though markings compendiums often are aligned with a certain maker, these are presumably associations taken from identified weapon examples.
Armourers provided not just one type of weapon, but often whatever was needed.

[Jim McDougall]

Just checking Wallace Coll. (Mann, 1962) and in the markings, there are numerous similar markings in the plates shown as Nuremberg (city markings). This would be accord with the suggestion placed by Fernando that a 'city' mark might be applicable, the shield shape also lends to that.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Gentlemen.

This SAHAGUM business is all new to me, as you would expect - considering my field has been limited to all associations with Shotley Bridge, However, it appears - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that like the Andrea Ferraro script, it was used almost indiscriminately by Solingen smiths... or perhaps the Cologne marketplace adding it to blades according to destination.
Jim you are well-versed on Passau Wolf history: was it used on sword-blades like this actually made in Bavaria?
There seems to be plenty of blades with the Passau Wolf and SAHAGUM around.
How do you know if it is a genuine or not?
That said, your suggestions of a city mark also seem viable.
The sun symbol looks familiar but I can't remember from where.
Also, mostly I see a flattened diamond shape blade profile on these swords; were variations in blade styles common?
Please keep suggestions coming if possible.

What you say about armourers supplying on demand makes sense to me Jim: I have a trefoil hollow-blade Smallsword made by Gill (complete with all his warranty marks etc) with a 27 inch blade length; apparently a one-off made for a Naval Officer (hence the short blade). No-one I have spoken to seems aware of any such sword ever coming from Gill.

[urbanspaceman]

Here's some pics of that Gill Smallsword just in case anyone is curious.

[Jim McDougall]

This pierced steel small sword is characteristic English 1790s, and were popularized by Boulton and several others of the time. It is VERY unusual to see this type blade by Gill, but not surprising given his profound activism in promoting the English blade making industry.
The signature and warranted slogan are distinctly his.

On the rapier blade, I am noticing this is not the Sahagum as presumed but the double I, and S's were I think invocation related and the mill rind (cogwheel) a well known marking element often seen in groupings.

[Jim McDougall]

Going further through WallaceColl., I am finding that these letter, symbol type inscriptions occur on Italian rapiers and blades c.1600 in some frequency, and repetitive letters seem to be some sort of coded phrase, invocation or slogan.

Sometimes letters had numeric value or other and were used in acrostics, but repetitive use seems to defy that.
There are blades with S S one over another, then
rosette (H) rosette (H) rosette (H)
some M O M O M and other markings.
Some have the 'sacred monogram'....IHS.

I would note here that the majescule A with center bar in drop down v was often used as a marking associated with Augsburg and other arms centers.
Here I dont see the drop down 'v' though.

On your example there are 'twig' type marks, typically Italian, enclosing the inscription. The II marks resemble 'H's seen in some Italian inscriptions.

The use of these letters, especially the S seem in degree well known on these kinds of inscriptions which seem to align with numbers of rapiers and swords from Italian examples c.1600 +
That they would be copied in S. Germany seems probable, and Mann in Wallace Coll. (op. cit.) notes German/Italian in many descriptions supporting that combination.

[urbanspaceman]

Hey Jim... you da Man ok! It seems that once your button is pushed the details just pour out; thank-you.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Here's some pics of that Gill Smallsword just in case anyone is curious.

I would note here again, pierced steel hilt as in 1790s type British small swords but this looks like a 'duelling epee' of the sort worn as a dress or court sword by British gentry and probably officers. Such swords were de rigueur in these times as status accouterments.
They recall 'transitional' rapiers but in this later period of course would be traditionally recalling these earlier forms, as with fencing versions.

[fernando]

Jim, good point on the wire grip missing bars .
To be (more) clear, i wasn't presuming that the name on the blade was that of one of the "SAHAGUN's" but actually pretending to discard such probability; my approach was more to recall that these are the type of names that one wishes that they figure on our swords, despite the odds. In fact we know that the Sahagun(not Sahagum) family, father and three sons, Toledan masters originary from (de) Sahagun, all used the same mark, a shielded crown over S.
By the way Jim, could you please tell in what page of WallaceColl, you find (Nuremberg) marks similar to that of the sword in discussion ?

[fernando]

On the other hand, and not pretending to gratuitously switch the complicometer, is it my eyes or the sword posted is in the "wrong" position, that is, with the knuckle guard on the top, instead of in the bottom. This inversion gives us a different view of the lettering, potentially due for a different interpretation.
I wonder if urbanspaceman could post a clear picture of both sides of the blade, both with the knuckle guard below the grip.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim. I thought that hilt on the Gill blade looked distinctly like a duelling rapier; it certainly doesn't inspire battlefield confidence.
Perhaps I should say 'deck' confidence as it is definitely a naval officer's sword: the 27 inch blade suggests no other because it is short even by Smallsword and Courtsword standards.
It is a big hilt too and the piercing is almost certainly Matthew Boulton at his best.
I could probably find its original owner as there are initials on the blade (see pic) although it is not easy to know if that is an I or a J.
I bought it from a dealer in Portsmouth Harbour who said the vendor told him it had Naval provenance.
One thing I will draw to everyone's attention is the lower hollow seen in the attached.

I'm still waiting for the rapier to arrive. Dirk cast his experienced eye on the pics and saw no reason not to think it was homogeneous, which was what I had thought; although I am entirely a novice here.

[urbanspaceman]

Originally Posted by fernando

On the other hand, and not pretending to gratuitously switch the complicometer, is it my eyes or the sword posted is in the "wrong" position, that is, with the knuckle guard on the top, instead of in the bottom. This inversion gives us a different view of the lettering, potentially due for a different interpretation.
I wonder if urbanspaceman could post a clear picture of both sides of the blade, both with the knuckle guard below the grip.

Hello Fernando. Thank-you for clearing up the correct spelling of SAHAGUN, I was confused, as it seems to apply to the place, yet I've seen it spelt both ways in recent searches; now I know for sure.

With regard to the lettering: I only have the vendor's pics so far but there is lettering on both sides. On one side they look like As with the cross-bar clearly visible; on the other side there is no cross-bar and they look like Vs (inverted) so I flipped the image around to correspond to the other side. Very perspicacious of you Fernando.
I will know more when it arrives.

I am mystified by this grip-wire bars business, can you explain for me please.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... I am mystified by this grip-wire bars business, can you explain for me please...

.

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you yet again Fernando. Further questions: were they meant to remain in place? Have they been lost?
You show a 'Sail' guard left-hand dagger: would that have been a typical accompaniment to this sword; I intend to pair one up when I can.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... Further questions: were they meant to remain in place? Have they been lost?...

Who knows ... fallen, as having become too loose with time ? I see no reason for having deliberately taken them off.

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... You show a 'Sail' guard left-hand dagger: would that have been a typical accompaniment to this sword ...

It was the first example i saw with those bars, when looking to the wall where my pieces stand. You may find these bars in many swords; a style option, good to hold the grip wiring in place, i would say.



.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Jim, good point on the wire grip missing bars .
To be (more) clear, i wasn't presuming that the name on the blade was that of one of the "SAHAGUN's" but actually pretending to discard such probability; my approach was more to recall that these are the type of names that one wishes that they figure on our swords, despite the odds. In fact we know that the Sahagun(not Sahagum) family, father and three sons, Toledan masters originary from (de) Sahagun, all used the same mark, a shielded crown over S.
By the way Jim, could you please tell in what page of WallaceColl, you find (Nuremberg) marks similar to that of the sword in discussion ?

Thank you Fernando. Actually when I mentioned Sahagun it was from my own reference and I had overlooked you had mentioned it as well, or had not picked up on your inference. I always have such a hard time discerning things from pictures posted, seeing the S took me to Sahagun almost inherently.
I then thought of these Italian, later other European groupings of letters and symbols which became a widely known convention. As most of Europe typically followed Italian lead, and the posted wire grips seemed to me mostly a Spanish characteristic (thinking of 'bilbo's), with Spanish rule in Netherlands it had plausibility to that context.

The fact that Germany of course supplied many blades to sword makers there supported the notion of the city mark, but then the sword may have been to any number of city guard units in Germany using the similar geometric device in shield cartouche.

The markings are from Wallace Coll., Sir James Mann, 1962, p.684).
Obviously there is no exact match, but the convention can be seen in the geometric designs. Even slight deviations could constitute of course an entirely different entity.

The posts may have been removed or come undone when wire wrap unraveled as is common in weapons of this type and age. Often pulling away the wire would do that and turks heads would still be intact.

[urbanspaceman]

So are all of those variations all attributable strictly to Nuremberg?

[fernando]

How things (letterings) will be different once the blade position is inverted; this in one of the sides.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

So are all of those variations all attributable strictly to Nuremberg?

Yes, they are; i have been through this page as well. But i fail to see any of them looking similar to the shield mark in yours. However Jim has more experience to judge on that ... variations and all.

[Jim McDougall]

As I was noting, the upper two lines of heraldic shields attributed to Nuremberg, while none correspond directly to the punzone on this rapier, the 'convention' is similar. Note how the bars or lines project outward from a central axis but in varied design. This seems very much the way alphabet characters were likely created in early languages, runes as well.

Though listed as 'city arms' to Nuremberg, it does not seem that ALL of these can be the 'city' arms, but perhaps what is meant is that these were known armourers marks in the CITY of Nuremberg, who of course had many.

This same sigil/rune type device arrangement is seen in some other markings, but the shield surround and styling seem to compare well to Nuremberg's.

It is often the case that an exact match to a certain mark cannot be found, but makers typically used similar marks, and others in the same shop may have used variations. Also, others of the family following in trade often used altered versions of a mark. Some makers were known to have used several markings over time. Whether this was due to worn punches no longer serviceable or simply change of preference, who knows?
These kinds of conundrums are often seen in the references on markings, but seem fairly consistant so compelling even though puzzling.

[urbanspaceman]

Thanks Guys, appreciate it. I wonder... should I attempt to replace those bars?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Thanks Guys, appreciate it. I wonder... should I attempt to replace those bars?

I think its a matter of personal taste. As a historian more than collector, I prefer to leave weapons in as much original state as possible. The idea is to preserve as much as possible to retain status quo. In my view even patina is physical representation of time thus historical veneration, and should be preserved as such. Naturally stabilizing any active corrosion is of course necessary.

Structurally, as long as damage or absence of components only effects the cosmetic values of the weapon, it seems prudent to leave as is, that is in my opinion. Again, personal taste.

[urbanspaceman]

Hi Jim. Yes, I've heard you say this before. Trouble is, I'm not really a historian, even though I am telling the historical story of Shotley Bridge. Neither am I a collector really, although I now have quite a collection. I am more interested in the engineering aspect of these swords, and the design. I am building this collection because it illustrates the development of this particular period of sword manufacture. Unfortunately, it has broadened as I delved deeper, hence the acquisition of the Rapier. The Hounslow Hangar and the Schiavona are next I suspect. It gets more expensive as I go along. The SB sword has been my most expensive so far but I would have paid twice that amount.

[urbanspaceman]

Incidentally, the blade of this SB sword is truly a work of genius. It is 4cm (0.17 inch for you Imperialists out there) at its thickest part for the majority of its length (i.e. mid.fuller to last c.18cm) with no variation! It is incredibly hard, yet rigid with significant flex. It is still razor sharp after 330 years, and smooth as can be. The balance is quite perfect. It is no-the-wonder they were prized so highly.
I never tire of appreciating the craftsmanship involved... that is what I am really: a lover of quality workmanship. This is why I am inclined to restore things to their 'as new' condition; that is what the craftsman worked to achieve and what appealed to the customer.