Old or new?

[corrado26]

A friend of min e has in his collection three pistols that are totylly unknown to me. Such pistols I've never seen before and think that they are not too old and perhaps made in India. Maybe that sombody here is able to help.
corrado26

[corrado26]

Here a further pistol in the same collection

[corrado26]

and here comes the third pistol All three pistols are different but made in the same style.

[Kubur]

Hi

You will find a good discussion about these pistols here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=gasser
The conclusion was they were Montenegrins but they are not.
It was also said that they were Persians (the lion) but they are not.
They are Turkish Ottoman from Istanbul in the 1900-20ties.
They were made almost exclusively with old parts...
Look at them closely you will see many parts from Ottoman flintlocks.

Kubur

[corrado26]

Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by corrado26

Ok, if these pistols are made in Istanbul/Turkey, why were they made in the beginning of the 20th century when muzzleloaders certainly have no longer been the state of the art? Tourist items?

yes

[rickystl]

Hi Corrado.

Somehow I missed this Thread. I agree with Kubur here. Early 20th Century Tourist pistols made to loosely resemble an Ottoman style. Much better quality than the later ones made about the 1950's to today. And as mentioned, often made with a combination of old original parts, and new made parts. While the locks were made functional, none of the primary working parts were hardened and tuned for use as a genuine firearm. Occasionally, one will turn up with an original barrel. But usually they were just steel pipe shaped to the desired fashion. From the top down, the locks on the first and third pistols looked to be 20th Century castings - though well done. But the second pistol has a genuine Turkish/Ottoman lock that was typical of the period style. See below.
Actually, you seldom run across these earlier tourist examples. So they could be considered somewhat collectable in their own rights. I guess by about the 1950's most of the original parts supply had dried up. Thus the introduction of the low grade tourists pistol as shown below, which I think are still be sold today.

You are probably aware of the similar fad during the Victorian Period where vast amounts of copies of guns/blades/armour were made to satisfy the decorator rage in Europe at the time. Often the guns would be made utilizing original locks. The blades and armour show up all the time at auctions.

Rick

[rickystl]

Later Tourist Pistol

[Philip]

Mr Corrado,
May I contribute a comment on the very first pistol, shown in several views, at the top of this thread --

I'm glad that you provided images of the lock because from this, I believe the gun to most likely be Indo-Portuguese, perhaps made by an artisan in Goa. Not only from the décor which has elements seen in furnishings and decorative arts from there, but more importantly, the construction of the lock itself.

The flintlock has all the characteristics of a uniquely Portuguese style of flintlock called a fecho de nó ( "knot" lock, unfortunately I do not know the etymology of this rather unusual term -- Fernando, can you help me out?) Characteristics include an internal mainspring with a typical "French" flintlock tumbler and sear arrangement (with half-cock detent, not the external Portuguese "brake" or swiveling safety dog). The odd "humpback" single leaf frizzen spring is also typically and perhaps uniquely Portuguese.

The fecho de nó originated in late 17th cent. Portugal, and is an amalgam of earlier stylistic elements, including the angular miquelet-style cock and the internal components of the mature flintlock. On your example, the styling of the cock has taken a more Frenchified shape, moving away from the normal Hispanicized form.

Quite an interesting thing! Thank you for posting it.

[Philip]

Here is an example of a fecho de nó,, dating from the 19th cent., showing the features explained in my prior post. Many Portuguese style flintlock mechanisms (and complete guns using same) of different types were manufactured at Liège for export to the Portuguese colonies; trade to Africa lasted for much of the 19th cent. They are variously marked (or not at all), and were made in a wide range of build quality, from quite good as you seed here, to extremely crude.

[Philip]

I post this one only to note the decorative filework on the edge of the frizzen spring, in comparison to that on the pistol under consideration.

(The typology of this lock has no bearing on the essence of this thread as it is a different breed of cat, similar origin as the above, but a separate style called fecho de três parafusos in Portuguese. Again, a sort of hybrid, having the external form of an earlier type called fecho de molinhas with the innards of a French flintlock sans half cock detent on the tumbler.)