A Unique European Hunting Sword With an Indo-Persian Wootz Blade

CharlesS · 18th May 2018, 05:12 PM

I have seen European hunting swords with "damascus" blades before, but have never seen one with a wootz blade, and an Islamic cartouche in addition. The blade here is of quality wootz, and I no reason to believe it is a cut-down sword...perhaps someone can convince me otherwise.

I know nothing of European swords, much less European hunting swords, so I am trying to learn a few things about this one. Its hilt is stag horn with steel mounts, including the common shell style guard. Is it a custom made sword in a certain European form(ie. German)? Is it more likely to be a Persian or Indian sword, simply mimicking European styles? Looking forward to hearing opinions!

Can anyone translate the cartouche?

Battara · 19th May 2018, 01:23 AM

What great wootz!

Miguel · 19th May 2018, 09:22 PM

I agree with Battara, beautiful Wooten. The hilt and quillons seem plain for such a blade. I think that I can make out a date in tha bottom cartouche but the gold on the second number in the bottom left hand corner is worn and I am guessing that it is a 2. I make the date AH 1221 which equates to AD 1806 which seems about right for the sword. Others with better eyesight than me may disagree sorry I can't offer any more and thanks for posting.
Regards
Miguel

CharlesS · 20th May 2018, 06:50 PM

Thanks guys!

Miguel, thanks especially for your translation.

eftihis · 20th May 2018, 08:22 PM

To me, the second digit on the date looks like "o" That gives a date of 1021 islamic, ie 1612, which looks much more likely for such a quality blade. Also, the second digit cannot be a "worn two" because even if it was, the remaining lines
do not correspond with the shape of the other "2" on the right.

AJ1356 · 20th May 2018, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

To me, the second digit on the date looks like "o" That gives a date of 1021 islamic, ie 1612, which looks much more likely for such a quality blade. Also, the second digit cannot be a "worn two" because even if it was, the remaining lines
do not correspond with the shape of the other "2" on the right.

I agree the date reads 1021 very clearly.
the rest says, Servant of Shah e Welaayet (Imam Ali the first Imam and the fourth Caliph) Abbas. This is the correct reading of this type of seal, I believe I have explained this elsewhere.
The bottom seal reads, Work of Kalb Ali ibn e Assad.

Very nice blade, the patterns is beautiful.

Bryce · 20th May 2018, 11:02 PM

G'day Charles. Great sword.

Is it just me or does this blade have a kirk narduban pattern with the steps on a slant! I haven't come across this before.

Cheers,
Bryce

Rick · 21st May 2018, 02:42 AM

Timeline according to blade date:
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/germany-I

kronckew · 24th May 2018, 12:12 PM

There were a number of sharp pointy things outside Wien in 1683 that the Turks decided they didn't need anymore after they were persuaded by a few Polish Winged Hussars that their welcome had been worn out and that they should leave. I wouldn't be surprised some were repurposed.

Roland_M · 24th May 2018, 01:00 PM

Congratulations to a very beautiful hunting sword.

As far as I can judge from the pictures, the pattern becomes finer close to the edge as a result of elaborate hammering to increase the quality of the blade.
Even close to the point the pattern becomes narrow. So I dont think this blade is a shortened whatever.

It is imho a British or French hunting sword and probably a contract work for a British or French citizen, which lived in India or Iran. Or maybe a present to an European officer or so.

I own an Indian Tulwar with a pipeback-blade oriented on a British pattern from early 19th ct.. So it was not too unusual for Indian and even Iranian smiths to make European edged weapons from wootz.

If I remember correctly, Kalib Ali is the son of the very famous Assadallah and in this case your sword is a magnificent one. But he lived to early to make a hunting sword in shape of a German deer catcher and all of his longswords I know are curved.

Roland

David · 24th May 2018, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

I agree the date reads 1021 very clearly.
the rest says, Servant of Shah e Welaayet (Imam Ali the first Imam and the fourth Caliph) Abbas. This is the correct reading of this type of seal, I believe I have explained this elsewhere.
The bottom seal reads, Work of Kalb Ali ibn e Assad.

Very nice blade, the patterns is beautiful.

Please excuse my ignorance on such things, but shouldn't this be read from right to left, making the Arabic date 1201, or roughly 1787?

Roland_M · 24th May 2018, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Please excuse my ignorance on such things, but shouldn't this be read from right to left, making the Arabic date 1201, or roughly 1787?

Hi David,

nowadays Arabic dates are written from left to right.
See this example, 1980 = 1359.

Roland

David · 24th May 2018, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi David,

nowadays Arabic dates are written from left to right.
See this example, 1980 = 1359.

Roland

OK, but was that also true 3-400 years ago when this blade was supposedly forged?

kamals · 27th June 2018, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

OK, but was that also true 3-400 years ago when this blade was supposedly forged?

I think that it depended on the region. There's a book floating around title The Origin of the Arabic Numerals. I can't remember the author but it had some nice plates of examples of early Arabic numeral use in the Muslim East, the Muslim West, and the Christian West. I have it but can't find it on my shelves this morning :-(

In any case, there were definitely early left right uses that he recorded in his book. I'll give a good look when I get home from work. It's around here somewhere...

ariel · 27th June 2018, 10:09 PM

I have several dated islamic blades from 17-18th centuries, and all dates are read left-to-right.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th June 2018, 10:23 PM

From the one who translated the text on my weapons, I was told that the text should be read from right to left, but the numbers from left to right.

Philip · 17th July 2018, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

From the one who translated the text on my weapons, I was told that the text should be read from right to left, but the numbers from left to right.

Agreed.

18th May 2018, 05:12 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A Unique European Hunting Sword With an Indo-Persian Wootz Blade I have seen European hunting swords with "damascus" blades before, but have never seen one with a wootz blade, and an Islamic cartouche in addition. The blade here is of quality wootz, and I no reason to believe it is a cut-down sword...perhaps someone can convince me otherwise. I know nothing of European swords, much less European hunting swords, so I am trying to learn a few things about this one. Its hilt is stag horn with steel mounts, including the common shell style guard. Is it a custom made sword in a certain European form(ie. German)? Is it more likely to be a Persian or Indian sword, simply mimicking European styles? Looking forward to hearing opinions! Can anyone translate the cartouche? Attached Images

21st May 2018, 02:42 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Persian Or ? Timeline according to blade date: http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/germany-I

24th May 2018, 12:12 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	There were a number of sharp pointy things outside Wien in 1683 that the Turks decided they didn't need anymore after they were persuaded by a few Polish Winged Hussars that their welcome had been worn out and that they should leave. I wouldn't be surprised some were repurposed. Attached Images

19th May 2018, 01:23 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	What great wootz!

19th May 2018, 09:22 PM	#3
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	I agree with Battara, beautiful Wooten. The hilt and quillons seem plain for such a blade. I think that I can make out a date in tha bottom cartouche but the gold on the second number in the bottom left hand corner is worn and I am guessing that it is a 2. I make the date AH 1221 which equates to AD 1806 which seems about right for the sword. Others with better eyesight than me may disagree sorry I can't offer any more and thanks for posting. Regards Miguel

20th May 2018, 06:50 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks guys! Miguel, thanks especially for your translation.

20th May 2018, 08:22 PM	#5
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	To me, the second digit on the date looks like "o" That gives a date of 1021 islamic, ie 1612, which looks much more likely for such a quality blade. Also, the second digit cannot be a "worn two" because even if it was, the remaining lines do not correspond with the shape of the other "2" on the right.

20th May 2018, 11:02 PM	#7
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 186	G'day Charles. Great sword. Is it just me or does this blade have a kirk narduban pattern with the steps on a slant! I haven't come across this before. Cheers, Bryce

24th May 2018, 01:00 PM	#10
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	Congratulations to a very beautiful hunting sword. As far as I can judge from the pictures, the pattern becomes finer close to the edge as a result of elaborate hammering to increase the quality of the blade. Even close to the point the pattern becomes narrow. So I dont think this blade is a shortened whatever. It is imho a British or French hunting sword and probably a contract work for a British or French citizen, which lived in India or Iran. Or maybe a present to an European officer or so. I own an Indian Tulwar with a pipeback-blade oriented on a British pattern from early 19th ct.. So it was not too unusual for Indian and even Iranian smiths to make European edged weapons from wootz. If I remember correctly, Kalib Ali is the son of the very famous Assadallah and in this case your sword is a magnificent one. But he lived to early to make a hunting sword in shape of a German deer catcher and all of his longswords I know are curved. Roland

27th June 2018, 10:09 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have several dated islamic blades from 17-18th centuries, and all dates are read left-to-right.

27th June 2018, 10:23 PM	#16
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	From the one who translated the text on my weapons, I was told that the text should be read from right to left, but the numbers from left to right.