Small Ottoman? Persian? Kard.

Norman McCormick · 27th June 2017, 09:14 PM

Hi,
This Kard seems particularly small 7 5/8ths inches overall with a 4 inch blade and 9 inches with sheath and knife together. White metal sheath and hilt, might be some type of silver alloy. Gold work on the blade but unfortunately the calligraphy part is nigh on impossible to read as it is quite degraded. I have seen a similar item on Oriental Arms website but it was a while ago and I've lost the link. Was this intended for a child? Was it for a scribe? All info gratefully received.
Regards,
Norman.

YataganMan · 27th June 2017, 10:04 PM

This little knife is Ottoman/Turkish ,they were produced for the girls in the hareem for self protection its size enabled the owner to conceal it under her clothing.The white metal was widely used at that time in the production of hilts and scabbards in lieu of silver cost of which was more affordable.

Battara · 28th June 2017, 02:11 AM

What a nice bichaq card!

I've noticed that many of these Balkan examples are quite small and not for children but worn by men like the Bosnian gentleman in the picture below.

kronckew · 28th June 2017, 07:34 AM

...local equivalent of a pocket knife

mariusgmioc · 28th June 2017, 09:47 AM

Very beautiful example of an Ottoman Bichaq from the Balcans (Bosnia?).

They come in a rather wide range of sizes. Yours can be for a boy but it still falls within the normal range of sizes.

Kubur · 28th June 2017, 10:20 AM

I'm very suspicious about your kard or bichaq.
In red, Ottoman Balkans features, no explanations needed.
In green, Indian features:
the flowers design
the fact that the scabbard tip is in one piece, on the Ottoman examples it's another part.
The mid part of the knife is very Indian to me.
Finaly this knife is an excellent condition.
Someone knows if Indians are doing copies of Ottoman weapons??
I just ask...

Norman McCormick · 28th June 2017, 10:22 AM

Thanks guys for your insight and comments.
Regards,
Norman.

motan · 28th June 2017, 11:52 AM

Hi Norman,
To me, it looks like a Ottoman Greek dagger. Having said that, it is not a typical one because most of them have a more Bichaq-like shape and the silver engraving is done with deeper relief, more like the one discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10027
In my mind, the style of decoration is not Persian but shows European influence, and the all-silver-plated look is certainly not Persian, but Greek-Ottoman. But I might be wrong, of course.

motan · 28th June 2017, 11:57 AM

After a closer look, I have to share Kubur's suspition. The gold koftgari does not look right and it COULD be an old simple kard blade re-hilted in India in general Ottoman-Balkan style

estcrh · 28th June 2017, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Finaly this knife is an excellent condition.
Someone knows if Indians are doing copies of Ottoman weapons??
I just ask...

They can and have copied a wide range of weapons and armor. I always look for signs of wear, there should always be some wear on an old blade and scabbard. I have seen quite a few with beautiful gold work that looks like it was applied yesterday, not a hundred years ago, as beautiful as they are I pass for more used looking weapons with no doubt of authenticity.

Norman McCormick · 28th June 2017, 05:54 PM

Hi,
Some more images that might help the deliberations.
Regards,
Norman.

estcrh · 28th June 2017, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Some more images that might help the deliberations.
Regards,
Norman.

The blade looks good to me, I see the signs of wear that one would expect to see on an older blade. Assuming that the scabbard and fittings are original to the blade the size is not unusual, I have a kard that is 10 1/2" with a 7 1/2".
blade, I also have a kard that is 17.5 inches long, quite a wide range of sizes.

Here is a link to many kard examples.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-knife-dagger/

Battara · 28th June 2017, 06:34 PM

Thanks for the pics. I am now more convinced that the piece is Ottoman, but came into the hands of a Greek who took off the cartouche - a common practice among Greeks who got Ottoman pieces.

Sometimes the Ottoman and Indian kards are hard to distinguish due to trade and cross cultural influences.

Kubur · 28th June 2017, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi,
Some more images that might help the deliberations.
Regards,
Norman.

Thank you, You changed my mind.
This knife looks old and authentic.
The last thing that I don't understand is the flowers and the decorations.

I will see in the book Balkan arms.
Congrat. Norman, the same knife page 255 in the book previously mentionned.
So your knife should be from the Balkans....

mariusgmioc · 28th June 2017, 07:51 PM

In my oppinion there is no question about its authenticity as an Ottoman Bichaq. I don't see anything to raise suspicion.

I have myself one with a single piece silver scabbard as it was quite common.

Now, where exactly was it made is another issue. My bet is for Bosnia but it can also be Greece or even Turkey, as both smiths and crafts travelled freely within the Otooman empire.

I agree with Battara that it was probably made by a Muslim smith, and at some point the Turkish/Arab/Farsi cartouche was deliberately removed by a Christian Zelot owner.

PS: Regarding Kubur's question about the flowers... well, that's precisely why I supect it was made in Bosnia... or somewhere in the Balkans as opposed to continental Turkey where I would expect diferent type of decorations.

PPS: I might be obsessed but I would check the blade for wootz.

Battara · 28th June 2017, 10:49 PM

Most Balkan blades were not wootz, but I do agree with mariusgmioc. It would be a good idea to check for wootz or a pattern weld of some kind just in case.

Norman McCormick · 29th June 2017, 12:06 PM

Thanks guys questions answered

I will look into the pattern welded/wootz thing and let you know. Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion.
My Regards,
Norman.

27th June 2017, 09:14 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Small Ottoman? Persian? Kard. Hi, This Kard seems particularly small 7 5/8ths inches overall with a 4 inch blade and 9 inches with sheath and knife together. White metal sheath and hilt, might be some type of silver alloy. Gold work on the blade but unfortunately the calligraphy part is nigh on impossible to read as it is quite degraded. I have seen a similar item on Oriental Arms website but it was a while ago and I've lost the link. Was this intended for a child? Was it for a scribe? All info gratefully received. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

27th June 2017, 10:04 PM	#2
YataganMan Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 14	Knives for ladies This little knife is Ottoman/Turkish ,they were produced for the girls in the hareem for self protection its size enabled the owner to conceal it under her clothing.The white metal was widely used at that time in the production of hilts and scabbards in lieu of silver cost of which was more affordable.

28th June 2017, 02:11 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	What a nice bichaq card! I've noticed that many of these Balkan examples are quite small and not for children but worn by men like the Bosnian gentleman in the picture below. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 10:20 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I'm very suspicious about your kard or bichaq. In red, Ottoman Balkans features, no explanations needed. In green, Indian features: the flowers design the fact that the scabbard tip is in one piece, on the Ottoman examples it's another part. The mid part of the knife is very Indian to me. Finaly this knife is an excellent condition. Someone knows if Indians are doing copies of Ottoman weapons?? I just ask... Attached Images

28th June 2017, 05:54 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, Some more images that might help the deliberations. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 07:34 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	...local equivalent of a pocket knife

28th June 2017, 09:47 AM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Very beautiful example of an Ottoman Bichaq from the Balcans (Bosnia?). They come in a rather wide range of sizes. Yours can be for a boy but it still falls within the normal range of sizes.

28th June 2017, 10:22 AM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Thanks guys for your insight and comments. Regards, Norman.

28th June 2017, 11:52 AM	#8
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Norman, To me, it looks like a Ottoman Greek dagger. Having said that, it is not a typical one because most of them have a more Bichaq-like shape and the silver engraving is done with deeper relief, more like the one discussed here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10027 In my mind, the style of decoration is not Persian but shows European influence, and the all-silver-plated look is certainly not Persian, but Greek-Ottoman. But I might be wrong, of course.

28th June 2017, 11:57 AM	#9
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	After a closer look, I have to share Kubur's suspition. The gold koftgari does not look right and it COULD be an old simple kard blade re-hilted in India in general Ottoman-Balkan style

28th June 2017, 06:34 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thanks for the pics. I am now more convinced that the piece is Ottoman, but came into the hands of a Greek who took off the cartouche - a common practice among Greeks who got Ottoman pieces. Sometimes the Ottoman and Indian kards are hard to distinguish due to trade and cross cultural influences.

28th June 2017, 07:51 PM	#15
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	In my oppinion there is no question about its authenticity as an Ottoman Bichaq. I don't see anything to raise suspicion. I have myself one with a single piece silver scabbard as it was quite common. Now, where exactly was it made is another issue. My bet is for Bosnia but it can also be Greece or even Turkey, as both smiths and crafts travelled freely within the Otooman empire. I agree with Battara that it was probably made by a Muslim smith, and at some point the Turkish/Arab/Farsi cartouche was deliberately removed by a Christian Zelot owner. PS: Regarding Kubur's question about the flowers... well, that's precisely why I supect it was made in Bosnia... or somewhere in the Balkans as opposed to continental Turkey where I would expect diferent type of decorations. PPS: I might be obsessed but I would check the blade for wootz. Attached Images

28th June 2017, 10:49 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Most Balkan blades were not wootz, but I do agree with mariusgmioc. It would be a good idea to check for wootz or a pattern weld of some kind just in case.

29th June 2017, 12:06 PM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Thanks guys questions answered I will look into the pattern welded/wootz thing and let you know. Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion. My Regards, Norman.