Question about the Laz Bicagi

Emanuel · 7th March 2006, 10:30 PM

Hello,

Ever since I first saw the beautiful black-sea yataghan I've wondered about it's orginin. All of the info I've seen on the internet and the meager literature I possess cite the Greek machaira as the most direct model for the yataghan family. Wondering through Stone's book however, I stumbled upon a picture of a bronze Assyrian Sapara. The same picture may be seen on this site http://hindunet.org/saraswati/sapara.jpg
To me this weapon, so much like the original Egyptian kopsh, is much closer in shape to the Laz Bicagi than the machaira, which is so much like the falcatta and khukri. My question is this: how old is the classical yataghan form known to be, and how long has the unmistakable form of the kopsh persisted in Mesopotamia and in Asia-Minor?
Is the Laz Bicagi just a coincidental merge of Tatar sabres with the Ottoman yataghan, or could it be a direct development from the Sapara?

Manolo

- edit -
My apologies, Jim McDougall had already brought this question up http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...black+yataghan
Perhaps moderators should delete this thread.

Valjhun · 8th March 2006, 01:42 PM

Well, personally I have ever failed to understand how is it possible that the mahaira from ancient greece could be a direct model for the ottoman (or yes, call it balkan) yataghan wich compared in the 17th century? There is a whole middle age aka. 1500 years without any examples of such curvature between the two of them...

Well saying that the yataghan is the direct successor of the greek mahaira is verry much alike in saying that the newest two core intel processor is a direct descendant of the greek abakus...

Regardin' that assyrian separa, I would say that from the position and style of the handle and age of manufacture I would say that it has nothing to do with the knopesh, 'cos the knopesh was used like a sickle. Again there is too big time margin beteen the separa and the Laz bichagi to say that the one derives from the other.

My opinion is that the Laz Bichagi is an development over time from the classic yataghan and it is suitable only for the purpose of ship boarding. That would explain why is it so rare. And everyone who had managed one can tell you that it has a terrible balance and the curvature is so odd that you can easily miss your target. Further, the Laz Bichagi emerged anly at the nearly end of the 18th century...

Ian · 8th March 2006, 04:33 PM

Hi Manolo:

As you noted in your edit, the "Black Sea Yataghan" has been much discussed on these Fora. You will find lengthy debates about whether it is indeed from the Black Sea area, or whether it has a Northern African origin; whether it is derived from a Turkish yataghan or from other influences, etc.

One thing I believe we can agree upon is that it is a relatively late arrival in terms of functional edged weapons, probably dating from the end of the 18th C./early 19th C. up until late 19th C. There may be a couple of styles with one showing more pronounced Ottoman influences in the blade.

I agree with Valjhun when he says they are not well balanced or easy to wield. This is not a sword I would reach for first if I had to defend myself.

Ian.

Valjhun · 8th March 2006, 06:40 PM

What I found almost unbelivable is the fact that a Laz Bichagi emerged on ebay lately and it was not sold, the price has arrived to 350$ not reaching a reserve...

Emanuel · 9th March 2006, 05:21 AM

Hello Ian and Valjhun,

Thank you for your answers, they put to rest most of my questions regarding a timeframe for the development of this beautiful weapon -for now. As for true provenance, that's an interesting debate that will go on for some time, I guess.

Regards,
Manolo

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2006, 05:29 AM

Hi Manolo,
I cannot resist responding to this, especially you were asking the very same questions I was thinking about when I first started researching these most interesting sabres some ten years ago. I found similarity in the Assyrian sapara in Burton's "Book of the Sword" and later found these similarities discussed in an article published in Denmark in 1941, which described the apparant origins of these swords in Kurdish and Armenian regions. It noted the locations where examples were collected and established key provenance.

As noted by Ian, these were late arrivals among edged weapons of these regions, most likely in my opinion about 1820's -1840's. It is known that certain examples that have been previously owned by individuals in Europe, one that I conferred with a very prominant arms historian, had 'unusual' and undecipherable markings along the back of the blade. This may well have been interpretive representations possibly even of the ancient cuneiform seen on the early saparas? I have been inclined to suspect that these weapons were quite possibly atavistic or revival type weapons that were intended to allude to ancient ancestry rather than a progressively developed form, hence the lack of intermediate or proto examples. The malle perce tip blades seen on Tatar sabre forms and others certainly may have provided influence for these needle points. It is interesting that the flyssa evolved in Algerian regions somewhat concurrently and most likely from Ottoman forms of yataghan and adding the same needle point.
I think that Ariels discovery of these 'Black Sea yataghans' in a museum provenancing them to the very regions being considered in research done from the latter 19th c. was the most telling evidence of thier true origins. The development of the flyssa in North Africa and key similarities along with what appears to be one or very few examples the recurved Black Sea version seem to be interesting evidence that suggest possible associations between these sword forms.

I am glad you posted this because this is exactly the kind of thinking that I think is so important in our studies of these weapons. It isn't really a matter of being right or wrong, simply of learning together and trying to develop the best conclusions by examining and discussing evidence and clues. Clearly we have discussed these interesting swords for many years, and remain somewhat divided in opinions, but always enjoy 'reopening the case'

All the best,
Jim

7th March 2006, 10:30 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Question about the Laz Bicagi Hello, Ever since I first saw the beautiful black-sea yataghan I've wondered about it's orginin. All of the info I've seen on the internet and the meager literature I possess cite the Greek machaira as the most direct model for the yataghan family. Wondering through Stone's book however, I stumbled upon a picture of a bronze Assyrian Sapara. The same picture may be seen on this site http://hindunet.org/saraswati/sapara.jpg To me this weapon, so much like the original Egyptian kopsh, is much closer in shape to the Laz Bicagi than the machaira, which is so much like the falcatta and khukri. My question is this: how old is the classical yataghan form known to be, and how long has the unmistakable form of the kopsh persisted in Mesopotamia and in Asia-Minor? Is the Laz Bicagi just a coincidental merge of Tatar sabres with the Ottoman yataghan, or could it be a direct development from the Sapara? Manolo - edit - My apologies, Jim McDougall had already brought this question up http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...black+yataghan Perhaps moderators should delete this thread. Last edited by Manolo; 7th March 2006 at 11:33 PM.

8th March 2006, 01:42 PM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well, personally I have ever failed to understand how is it possible that the mahaira from ancient greece could be a direct model for the ottoman (or yes, call it balkan) yataghan wich compared in the 17th century? There is a whole middle age aka. 1500 years without any examples of such curvature between the two of them... Well saying that the yataghan is the direct successor of the greek mahaira is verry much alike in saying that the newest two core intel processor is a direct descendant of the greek abakus... Regardin' that assyrian separa, I would say that from the position and style of the handle and age of manufacture I would say that it has nothing to do with the knopesh, 'cos the knopesh was used like a sickle. Again there is too big time margin beteen the separa and the Laz bichagi to say that the one derives from the other. My opinion is that the Laz Bichagi is an development over time from the classic yataghan and it is suitable only for the purpose of ship boarding. That would explain why is it so rare. And everyone who had managed one can tell you that it has a terrible balance and the curvature is so odd that you can easily miss your target. Further, the Laz Bichagi emerged anly at the nearly end of the 18th century... Last edited by Valjhun; 8th March 2006 at 03:34 PM.

8th March 2006, 04:33 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Hi Manolo: As you noted in your edit, the "Black Sea Yataghan" has been much discussed on these Fora. You will find lengthy debates about whether it is indeed from the Black Sea area, or whether it has a Northern African origin; whether it is derived from a Turkish yataghan or from other influences, etc. One thing I believe we can agree upon is that it is a relatively late arrival in terms of functional edged weapons, probably dating from the end of the 18th C./early 19th C. up until late 19th C. There may be a couple of styles with one showing more pronounced Ottoman influences in the blade. I agree with Valjhun when he says they are not well balanced or easy to wield. This is not a sword I would reach for first if I had to defend myself. Ian.

8th March 2006, 06:40 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	What I found almost unbelivable is the fact that a Laz Bichagi emerged on ebay lately and it was not sold, the price has arrived to 350$ not reaching a reserve...

9th March 2006, 05:21 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Ian and Valjhun, Thank you for your answers, they put to rest most of my questions regarding a timeframe for the development of this beautiful weapon -for now. As for true provenance, that's an interesting debate that will go on for some time, I guess. Regards, Manolo

10th March 2006, 05:29 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Hi Manolo, I cannot resist responding to this, especially you were asking the very same questions I was thinking about when I first started researching these most interesting sabres some ten years ago. I found similarity in the Assyrian sapara in Burton's "Book of the Sword" and later found these similarities discussed in an article published in Denmark in 1941, which described the apparant origins of these swords in Kurdish and Armenian regions. It noted the locations where examples were collected and established key provenance. As noted by Ian, these were late arrivals among edged weapons of these regions, most likely in my opinion about 1820's -1840's. It is known that certain examples that have been previously owned by individuals in Europe, one that I conferred with a very prominant arms historian, had 'unusual' and undecipherable markings along the back of the blade. This may well have been interpretive representations possibly even of the ancient cuneiform seen on the early saparas? I have been inclined to suspect that these weapons were quite possibly atavistic or revival type weapons that were intended to allude to ancient ancestry rather than a progressively developed form, hence the lack of intermediate or proto examples. The malle perce tip blades seen on Tatar sabre forms and others certainly may have provided influence for these needle points. It is interesting that the flyssa evolved in Algerian regions somewhat concurrently and most likely from Ottoman forms of yataghan and adding the same needle point. I think that Ariels discovery of these 'Black Sea yataghans' in a museum provenancing them to the very regions being considered in research done from the latter 19th c. was the most telling evidence of thier true origins. The development of the flyssa in North Africa and key similarities along with what appears to be one or very few examples the recurved Black Sea version seem to be interesting evidence that suggest possible associations between these sword forms. I am glad you posted this because this is exactly the kind of thinking that I think is so important in our studies of these weapons. It isn't really a matter of being right or wrong, simply of learning together and trying to develop the best conclusions by examining and discussing evidence and clues. Clearly we have discussed these interesting swords for many years, and remain somewhat divided in opinions, but always enjoy 'reopening the case' All the best, Jim