Javanese keris for comment - Page 2

nechesh · 13th January 2005, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

There's still too much English in the posts; they can't understand them yet.....

LOL! Well, that made me spit my coffee!

Haven't you received your English/Keris dictionary yet?
Be patient, i'm sure THEY will send you one.

Paul de Souza · 14th January 2005, 11:37 AM

Hello All,

Since we are on the topic of Blarak Nigirid, I have what I think is an old piece. The keris, while it has a Madura hilt, comes in a Malay sarong of good fit. The sarong shows age and good patina. I am not sure if it is a Peninsular/Riau/Bugis or Javanese blade. I took some pictures as best I could and you can see that the Blarak Nigirid pamor does not reach the edge - showing the steel core? or is it just wear? It will be nice to hear your comments on this enigma. I wonder how old it is. Empu Kumis - will be grateful for your comments.

BluErf · 14th January 2005, 01:29 PM

Just some thoughts: The dapur does not look like what the Madurese smiths usually make -- notice the way the upper half of the blade tapers to a narrow sharp point.

I have also seen an old bugis blade from the collection of our vey own Dave Henkel with very similar pamor. The corrosion is also very similar. The fact that the blade is so corroded yet the metal surface is still generally intact (i.e. no cracks or forging flaws showing) says a lot about the quality of the metal and the good fusion between the pamor and the steel core.

I am inclined to think this is an old blade.

empu kumis · 14th January 2005, 11:38 PM

Hello Paul,
nice to hear from you. Have you got my message ? Your keris is an older one. This kind has been made in Madura as well in Yogya but seldom in Solo. I never saw a pamor like this from a Bugi-blade. Pamor blarak ngirid is a pmor miring but this is of the pamor puntiran family (torsion) one staff left and one right with correct slorok. Groneman mentioned the name sekar polo which also not used in Solo. This is also a pamor difficult to make because the pamorlines should meet in a proper way. Could be a stray find hopefully not "yang di larung". I think you know the wutuh is gone.

Regards

EK

BluErf · 16th January 2005, 04:21 AM

Just read through some of the posts more carefully and I thought I should say some more things:

To Nechesh -- sorry for not answering your question when you asked. I was starting to question my own understanding of the pudak setegal at that point in time, so I did not want to say anything potentially wrong.

To Empu Kumis -- the gang (Paul, Dave, Adni and myself) here in Singapore looks forward to seeing you again, and I'm sure we have many things to discuss over coffee or dinner.

nechesh · 16th January 2005, 06:45 AM

No Problem Blu.

It wasn't omly directed at you. There were a few others who could have answered as well. So i guess what i currently understand after E.K.s explanation is that it is NOT necessary for this feature to pertrude from the blade profile. I guess i had assumed this was necessary because in all the diagrams that DO show this feature it always does stick out.

Kiai Carita · 29th April 2005, 04:48 PM

All the new keris posted on this thread seem to be good ones to me. At least they are not trying to look old. I say that they are honest keris because they have the tungkakan where the edge of the wilah rests on the ganja it is shaped like a heel (tungkak). The tungkakan seems to have been invented in Solo in the late 19'th century after the Java War (1830). However the first photograph appeared to have a ganja that did not quite fit, this is almost always a sign of an inferior smith.

Salam Keris

14th January 2005, 11:37 AM	#32
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Hello All, Since we are on the topic of Blarak Nigirid, I have what I think is an old piece. The keris, while it has a Madura hilt, comes in a Malay sarong of good fit. The sarong shows age and good patina. I am not sure if it is a Peninsular/Riau/Bugis or Javanese blade. I took some pictures as best I could and you can see that the Blarak Nigirid pamor does not reach the edge - showing the steel core? or is it just wear? It will be nice to hear your comments on this enigma. I wonder how old it is. Empu Kumis - will be grateful for your comments. Attached Images

29th April 2005, 04:48 PM	#37
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Honestly New Keris All the new keris posted on this thread seem to be good ones to me. At least they are not trying to look old. I say that they are honest keris because they have the tungkakan where the edge of the wilah rests on the ganja it is shaped like a heel (tungkak). The tungkakan seems to have been invented in Solo in the late 19'th century after the Java War (1830). However the first photograph appeared to have a ganja that did not quite fit, this is almost always a sign of an inferior smith. Salam Keris

14th January 2005, 01:29 PM	#33
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just some thoughts: The dapur does not look like what the Madurese smiths usually make -- notice the way the upper half of the blade tapers to a narrow sharp point. I have also seen an old bugis blade from the collection of our vey own Dave Henkel with very similar pamor. The corrosion is also very similar. The fact that the blade is so corroded yet the metal surface is still generally intact (i.e. no cracks or forging flaws showing) says a lot about the quality of the metal and the good fusion between the pamor and the steel core. I am inclined to think this is an old blade.

14th January 2005, 11:38 PM	#34
empu kumis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 17	Hello Paul, nice to hear from you. Have you got my message ? Your keris is an older one. This kind has been made in Madura as well in Yogya but seldom in Solo. I never saw a pamor like this from a Bugi-blade. Pamor blarak ngirid is a pmor miring but this is of the pamor puntiran family (torsion) one staff left and one right with correct slorok. Groneman mentioned the name sekar polo which also not used in Solo. This is also a pamor difficult to make because the pamorlines should meet in a proper way. Could be a stray find hopefully not "yang di larung". I think you know the wutuh is gone. Regards EK

16th January 2005, 04:21 AM	#35
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just read through some of the posts more carefully and I thought I should say some more things: To Nechesh -- sorry for not answering your question when you asked. I was starting to question my own understanding of the pudak setegal at that point in time, so I did not want to say anything potentially wrong. To Empu Kumis -- the gang (Paul, Dave, Adni and myself) here in Singapore looks forward to seeing you again, and I'm sure we have many things to discuss over coffee or dinner.

16th January 2005, 06:45 AM	#36
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	No Problem Blu. It wasn't omly directed at you. There were a few others who could have answered as well. So i guess what i currently understand after E.K.s explanation is that it is NOT necessary for this feature to pertrude from the blade profile. I guess i had assumed this was necessary because in all the diagrams that DO show this feature it always does stick out.