After the Anglo-Sikh wars

[Jens Nordlunde]

In The Arts of the Sikh Kingdoms, Susan Stronge has written an article, and on p. 90 she writes.
"The most spectacular cannons were shipped back to Britain; the firearms and other weapons of the Khalsa army which remained in Lahore became Dr Login's responsibility, and the finest were sent to London or sold in Lahore. The rest, purely utiliarian pieces, were recycled. Login wrote to his wife: 'We are now working hard in the magazine, breaking up old arms as fast as we can... already I have supplied Napier with many tons of them for his work on the canals. I had the pleasure of having the first sword brought in converted into capital scythes for mowing the grass in the soldier's gardens.'"

It must have been a very big amount of weapons confiscated and recycled, and we can only guss of the 'small' number sold. To this comes, that the same had happened all over India over a longer period.
Some weapons were recycled, while others were dropped at sea (Coorg). We can only guess how many weapons were destroyed, but we must also remember the very big armies moving around an fighting each other over centuries. The ruler of South India eas said to be able to raise an army of more than one million men.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jens for this insightful look into the circumstances concerning Indian arms during these turbulent times and how volumes of these weapons virtually vanished as a result of destruction, recycling and repurposing.
It is hard to imagine just how many weapons were produced and in use in these times and of course those which had been in use from years before, but the sizes of these native armies were often monumental in numbers.

As noted, various armouries which held stockpiles of various edged weapons which were indeed destroyed, however from reading accounts of various writers of the periods such as Walhouse ( "The Old Tanjore Armoury, Indian Antiquary, 1878), it sound as if many of these were piles of unserviceable old weapons.

As with most situations where arms of subjugated people are confiscated and proscribed, those in private hands handily disappeared or were secreted away. Obviously those from campaign and battles became souveniers or trophies aside from other disposal.

The Coorg weapons were dumped at sea in the events and proscriptions of 1850s in large numbers, but certainly did not accomplish more than a grandstand showing emphasizing those efforts. Though considerable depletion of the weapons was accomplished, many still remained in outer regions and production probably covertly done as well.

These circumstances reveal the challenges and intrigue of collecting and studying Indian weapons, and the importance of so many of them which have been documented and preserved as with Jens' collection.

[Jim McDougall]

In 1884, Egerton in his introduction to his 'handbook' on Indian arms, noted that there were no works of reference in order to learn about the many forms of weapons they (the British) had been exposed to while there other than scattered notes in 'Oriental' magazines etc.
He proposed to remedy this with his study, begun in 1855, and hoped to instill interest and encourage further investigation into the history, character and uses of these arms,

That interest and enthusiasm, did not evolve as he had hoped, aside from occasional articles and papers and a few references here and there, and though certain attention given in works of Oldman and Stone, it was pretty much a century before any serious study really received notice.

The important work by Rawson, Pant, Haider, Elgood and sundry other articles have been the core of study for any collector or scholar intrepid enough to venture into this fascinating and complex field of arms.
Jens has now added his most important catalog to the corpus of key published material, and as Egerton a century and a half before, has implored students of arms to continue moving ahead in the study of these arms.


I wanted to add more to my previous post, by referring to the writing of Walhouse in 1878 concerning the state of arms in one of these armouries, and presuming that others may have been in similar state.

"...the armoury consisted of great heaps of old weapons of all conceivable descriptions, lying on the floor of the Sangita Mahal (=music hall)."
The bottom of what seems like a huge swimming pool was "...long occupied by many tons of rusty arms and weapons, in confused heaps, coated and caked together with thick rust."

The long and detailed descriptions by Walhouse presented a wonderous visual perception of what this panorama of Indian arms must have looked like, and as he notes, he was personally viewing this in 1863!

This multitude of Indian arms was "....removed to Trichinapalli, and deposited in the arsenal there, and after a committee of officers had sat upon the multifarious collection and solemnly reported the ancient arms unfit for use in modern warfare, the government after selecting the best for the museum, ordered the residue to be broken up and sold as old iron."

[Jens Nordlunde]

Thank you Jim, for taking an interest in this, to me very interesting subject.
I have always wondered why this chapter was neglected, but maybe it then was 'daily work' and not history as it is to day.

[Miguel]

Hi Jens, It does you and other serious researchers great credit in uncovering the information you do when destruction on such a scale as described occurred. I am still trying off and on to discover the origin of the Coorg sword and also of the Coorgs themselves with little success up to present, unfortunately. I just wanted to say how much I admire your dedication it is inspirational.

I wanted to respond to your post much earlier but since updating to Windows 10 I seem to have been beset with problems.
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Miguel, you are welcome.
Research can be hard work, and usualy you hit the wall a few or many times, but try to look at it this way. Every time you research, wall or not, you learn something, maybe not what you are looking for - but you still learn something.
Have you tried to dig into the Ellora Caves? They were made from the 6th to the 10th century, and represents three different religions. The paintings and statues are said to represent all the weapons used in this period. Maybe you will find ssomething which will give you a pointer.
When I researched how old the katar is, I read about the caves, and saw that no katars were shown/mentioned, so I knew that the katar was not that old, or at least not used in this area at the time.
Good luck.
Jens

[Kmaddock]

Hi
At a recent auction I saw the following lot of chopped down Indian weaponry
(sold a week or so ago)
this is what it must have looked like in the smelting pots when all these weapons were being destroyed
regards
Ken

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ken, this is really a chock to me. I knew this was happening, but to see the weapons - what a pity.
I wonder how these 'weapons' got to Europe in this condition. Who would want to toutch them from they were sawn off?

[Kmaddock]

Hi Jens
I haves a few more pictures from the auction I will post tomorrow
Showing some more of the items
A tough picture to see such a brutal destruction.
I will pm you the auction house details if you like.
Regards
Ken

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Ken,
Please give me the details.
I know the auction house did not do this, but when you ask why was it done, one must remember that at the time they has tons of these weapons - and they did not know what to do with them. We would have known, but they did not.

[Kmaddock]

Hi Jens
Please see attached more images from the same auction, sorry about poor quality but they are just saved images from an on line catalogue.

These items sold for a lot of money so rest assured they are gone to a good home.

The items were sold in Scotland and the auction descriptor said the items came from Capenoch House, if that means anything to anyone.

It looks like the Bischwa, and the 2 Katars escaped the chop

Looking at images it looks as if the destruction was done a long time as there is a lot of corrosion on the cut ends.

It reminds me of the destruction of weapons after World War II where I have seen images of tanks driven over masses of guns.

We can only guess why and when it was done

Regards,

Ken

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ken it is quite a nice mansion house build end of 18th century.
If the owner of the mansion house was in India at the time of destruction, one can wonder why he could not lay his hands on the swords and daggers before the destruction.
If he could not, and this seems to be obvious, why wouldd he want destructed weapons? At the time there should be plenty of intact weapons to be had - especially if you were English and had a few connections.

The new owner may remove the rests of the blades and restore the hilts, and maybe be looking for other blades - who knows?
I like the two katars.

[ariel]

The remnant of a patissa on the last pic is interesting: the blade widens toward the handle.

What a waste....

[David R]

I would imagine that they were part of a wall display or trophy of arms. One where the swords were arrayed behind a Dhal or other shield with the hilts and a short section of blade visible, and the rest of the blade surplus to requirement.

[Kmaddock]

Good theory David
There was only one Dahl in the auction and it was in good condition. The display would have to have been taken apart a long time to have such variance in condition. But I like the idea you propose we will never know real reason.
Maybe a relative sent the items home to Scotland and subsequently was killed in India and the family broke up the items in anger? Who knows.
Ken

[Jens Nordlunde]

I dont know what happened, but maybe someone at the Capenoch House would have a family story about these weapons.
It is vandalism any way you see it, and some of the weapons are not only old, but very old - 500 years or more.

[Jim McDougall]

This circumstance reminds me of another such travesty toward weapons, almost a deliberate derision of a vanquished foe.
In the tragic Scottish Rebellion of 1745, after the Battle of Culloden, many Scottish basket hilt swords were picked up off the battlefield.
In "The Swords of Culloden" Sir Archibald Campbell describes his horrifying discovery of a painted iron fence around at least one residence in England which was incredibly comprised of cut down blades off these Scottish swords.
On these blades were the familiar markings of the Solingen blades such as the running wolf, Andrea Ferara and others. It was heartbreaking viewing these once stalwart blades now rendered simple elements of a mundane fence.

To dishonor these weapons in this way is in my view a disgrace. There are so many occasions in military history where the victorious commander, as a gesture of honor and respect would refuse the traditional surrender of the sword from the other.

[David R]

The fence you refer to was around the London residence of the Duke of Cumberland, Commander of the Crown forces at Culloden. What else were they going to do with them? Sell them on the open market and find them arrayed against the Crown on yet another occasion!.... I would also point out that legally the Scots were in rebellion against their lawful government, so these would be regarded as the arms of traitors, not a respected enemy.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks for the correct location of the fence.....now that makes sense.
Also for the interesting perspective Re: Culloden . I guess there are at least two sides to every story, and did not intend to get political. Perhaps there was just not enough iron around to build a fence without so cleverly using these blades.
With these weapons from India, it does make sense that they were altered to fit wall decoration settings. I guess pretty much the same concept. I would not imagine such captured weapons being marketed or sold for the obvious reason you note.
In India, huge hoards of arms and armour were captured in battles etc and taken to armouries such as Bikaner.

[Jim McDougall]

I found the book I was referring to, which is "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" by Lord Archibald Campbell (1894) and was edited, annotated and published by the late E. Andrew Mowbray in 1971.

Mowbray notes in his introduction (p.13). "...frequently a family heirloom-often in its second or third hilting- the Highlanders sword was far more than just a weapon. The great symbolic value of these arms was not lost upon the Duke of Cumberland. A bounty was paid from the royal purse of one shilling for every broadsword picked up from the battlefield".

He notes that along with cannon, ammunition and 2320 muskets, there were about 190 broadswords claimed. Considering the dead and wounded from both during and after the battle, that seems a paltry number of swords.

In any case, Campbell in his original work of 1894 describes a very curious fence from Twickenham House, a former residence of Sir John Hawkins.
The fence had been acquired in 1893 by a Mr Edward Ross who in turn had obtained it from a Lord Tweedale. The fence was formed of sword blades gathered from the field at Culloden and this particular nobleman had "...caused them to be put up in this extraordinary and barbaric way".

Perhaps this Lord Tweedale acquired this ghastly fence from Cumberland?
which Campbell describes further in that, "...the taste of the period at which the railing was formed was about as bad as taste could be. The style of rail can be seen in many hideous examples still extant".(p.19).

The author notes that 137 blades came into his possession from this railing when it was finally dismantled.

It was from this perspective that I added this instance to the topic here, the wanton destruction or rudely disfigured display of the treasured weapons of a people . As a lifelong arms historian, it is these kinds of treatments of these valued icons of history that I find disturbing regardless of the circumstances which compelled them.

[ariel]

Well, using swords of the vanquished foe as a lowly fence was purely symbolic and analogous to dragging their captured flags on the ground during the victory parade: a show of derision. Such practice was known from time immemorial: Alexander burned Persepolis, Tamerlane paraded Bayazet in the cage etc.

Destroying Indian arsenals, on the other hand, was purely practical : disarming, not disrespect.

The cultural effects were the same: loss of historical objects.

[colin henshaw]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I found the book I was referring to, which is "Scottish Swords from the Battlefield at Culloden" by Lord Archibald Campbell (1894) and was edited, annotated and published by the late E. Andrew Mowbray in 1971.

Mowbray notes in his introduction (p.13). "...frequently a family heirloom-often in its second or third hilting- the Highlanders sword was far more than just a weapon. The great symbolic value of these arms was not lost upon the Duke of Cumberland. A bounty was paid from the royal purse of one shilling for every broadsword picked up from the battlefield".

He notes that along with cannon, ammunition and 2320 muskets, there were about 190 broadswords claimed. Considering the dead and wounded from both during and after the battle, that seems a paltry number of swords.

In any case, Campbell in his original work of 1894 describes a very curious fence from Twickenham House, a former residence of Sir John Hawkins.
The fence had been acquired in 1893 by a Mr Edward Ross who in turn had obtained it from a Lord Tweedale. The fence was formed of sword blades gathered from the field at Culloden and this particular nobleman had "...caused them to be put up in this extraordinary and barbaric way".

Perhaps this Lord Tweedale acquired this ghastly fence from Cumberland?
which Campbell describes further in that, "...the taste of the period at which the railing was formed was about as bad as taste could be. The style of rail can be seen in many hideous examples still extant".(p.19).

The author notes that 137 blades came into his possession from this railing when it was finally dismantled.

It was from this perspective that I added this instance to the topic here, the wanton destruction or rudely disfigured display of the treasured weapons of a people . As a lifelong arms historian, it is these kinds of treatments of these valued icons of history that I find disturbing regardless of the circumstances which compelled them.

There is mention of this fence made of sword blades from Culloden, in the Jacobite displays at Chiddingstone Castle, Kent, England. For anyone interested in the subject, I can recommend a visit to the Castle, which contains the excellent collections of the late Denys Bower. Jacobite, Japanese, Buddhist, Egyptian material and more... See www.chiddingstonecastle.org.uk

A great day out !

[ASingh]

Hi,
A possible explanation for the destruction of blades could be to conform to the Indian Arms Act 1959 that requires privately owned blades above 9 inches in length to be licensed, if carried. Many old toradar matchlock muskets used as wall hangers in India are punched at the breach to be considered legal.
Regards,
ASingh

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

A fair thing and moving to read is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Culloden where it recounts a British Army corporals story on the Highland Charge that day which ended in disaster...


"When we saw them coming towards us in great Haste and Fury, we fired at about 50 Yards Distance, which made Hundreds fall; notwithstanding which, they were so numerous, that they still advanced, and were almost upon us before we had loaded again. We immediately gave them another full Fire and the Front Rank charged their Bayonets Breast high, and the Center and Rear Ranks kept up a continual Firing, which, in half an Hour's Time, routed their whole Army. Only Barrel's Regiment and ours was engaged, the Rebels designing to break or flank us but our Fire was so hot, most of us having discharged nine Shot each, that they were disappointed".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ken,
If you know who bought the lot with the swords and katar, please give me a PM.
Jens

[Kmaddock]

Hi Jens
Sorry I do not know who purchased the lot
Did you get my pm on the price the lot sold for
It was a lot of money so whom ever it was saw something of value in the lot.
Ken

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Ken,

No I dont think I got your PM - as I dont seem to be able to find it. Please send it again.
Jens

[Kmaddock]

Hi
I don't think it infringes rules so I will tell the price on open forum so other forum users are aware of value put on these items
If this is against rules my apologies and please delete post
The lot sold for 1100 sterling plus auction house fees
Regards
Ken

[ariel]

I must be missing something: for 2 intact katars of uncertain quality ( Jens, please feel free to correct me) , intact and not old kukri and a bunch of broken swords, all rusty, -£1100 + premium?
As far as I can see, the only reason is the handles. Wrong?

[Kmaddock]

Hi,

Also the 2 Pata were in a different lot, I think these went for £170 + fees

The pre auction estimate for the cut down sword and Katar lot was 50-100
I reckoned they would go higher but there was no way I was going as far as they went
regards
K