Jade or not?!

mariusgmioc · 19th November 2016, 09:35 AM

Hello,

Is this jade?

Regards,

Marius

mariusgmioc · 19th November 2016, 09:37 AM

Well, if you think it is... you are wrong.

It is in fact Onyx. It comes from central Anatolia in Turkey wher it is found in abundance.

VANDOO · 19th November 2016, 05:11 PM

A TRICKY THING TO TELL FROM PICTURES ESPECIALLY THE WHITE HORSE BUT I GUESSED CORRECTLY. I AM ALSO A ROCKHOUND FOR EVEN LONGER THAN I AM A SWORDHOUND.

THERE IS QUITE A LOT OF ONYX FOUND IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA AND IT IS OFTEN CARVED INTO ANIMALS AND VASES THERE TOO. THE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR STONE ALABASTER IS ALSO FOUND AND CARVED HERE AS WELL AS IN EGYPT AND ELSEWHERE. THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL STONES BUT ARE NOT AS STRONG OR HEAVY AS JADE AND WILL CERTAINLY CHIP OR BREAK IF DROPPED. THEY ARE MUCH SOFTER AND EASILY WORKED WHERE JADE IS NOT FAST OR EASY TO WORK.

THEY STILL MAKE MEXICAN ONYX ANIMALS, BOOK ENDS , BOWLS, JEWELRY AND VASES IN MEXICO BUT HAVE STARTED MAKING LARGER FURNITURE AND ARCHITECTURAL USE OF ONYX AS WELL.
#1. SMALL ONYX ELEPHANT MEXICO
#2. ONYX LAMP
#3. ONYX COFFEE TABLE
#4. LARGE MEXICAN ORANGE ONYX SLAB
#5. ONYX LIGHTED BAR
#6. ONYX HALLWAY

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2016, 10:58 PM

A quick, on the spot test to identify a jade possibility is to try to scratch the stone with a scriber.

The usual jade substitutes will scratch, jade will not.

It is a possibility test only, but it has saved me an error or two in the past.

Going back a few years I used to sell gemstones to jewellers and lapidiarists in Central Jawa and Bali. Apart from opals and sapphires, the most popular stone I sold to them was good quality chrysoprase. I sold this as rough, and it was marketed as "Hong Kong Jade".

The recent glass look-a-likes are really a trap, in a market setting, they are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing.

donsamadhi · 20th November 2016, 11:19 PM

No.. I dont think so.

different from this .. not onyx http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22064

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 02:21 PM

Not long ago a friend of mine travelled to China and while in Beijing she wanted to buy a genuine Jade statue. Luckily she has a very knowledgeable Chinese friend and also did a lot of research on jade. However, after several days of looking through both high end art shops and second hand markets, the only place where she could get with certainty genuine jade was at the Geological Museum of China. And it didn't come cheap, but she got a lovely nephrite statue of a cat.

So genuine jade (nephrite or jadeite) is quite hard to find and quite expensive.

Almost all Indian "Mughal" daggers with "jade" hilts we see frequently on sale, are not jade but other similarly looking stones or even glass.

VANDOO · 21st November 2016, 04:23 PM

JADE OCCURS IN MANY COLORS THRU OUT THE WORLD AND THERE IS A LARGE SUPPLY. TOP QUALITY JADE (NEPHRITE) OR JADEITE IS RARE AND BRINGS THE BEST PRICES SO IS THE MOST IN DEMAND. IN ANCIENT CHINA THE WHITE TRANSLUCENT NEPHRITE JADE WAS THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER AND EXPENSIVE. TODAY THE GREEN IMPERIAL GRADE JADEITE IS LIKELY THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER AND EXPENSIVE. GOOD JADE IS EXPENSIVE SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE JADE BUT IS NOT IS CHEAP SO IF IT CAN BE PASSED OFF AS JADE THE PROFIT IS MUCH GREATER HENCE THE PROLIFERATION OF JADE SUBSTITUTES. BESIDES THE CHINESE WANT TO KEEP ALL THE GOOD JADE FOR THEMSELVES.

IF YOU CAN SCRATCH IT WITH A METAL SCRIBE ITS NOT JADE YOU MENTIONED IT SCRATCHED WHITE IF SO, ITS WHITE BUT NOT JADE.
#1. THRU #6. VARIOUS COLORS OF JADEITE CARVED IN CHINA
#7. CHINESE YELLOW NEPHRITE JADE A LOWER QUALITY DUE TO IT NOT BEING PURE WHITE AND TRANSLUCENT.
#8. & # 9. JADE SHOP AT HOKITIKA NEW ZEALAND. MAORI JADE NEPHRITE THERE ARE SEVERAL VARIOUS MAORI NAMES FOR DIFFERENT TYPES OF JADES ALL FOUND ON THE SOUTH ISLAND.
#10 IS A PIECE OF JADE I FOUND ON THE BEACH AT HOKITIKA IT IS
SITTING ON A LARGE PIECE OF DRIFTWOOD NEAR WHERE IT WAS FOUND.
#11. CLOSE UP LIGHTED FROM BEHIND OF A MAORI PENDANT SHOWING A VERY GOOD QUALITY PIECE OF ONE TYPE OF MAORI JADE.
#12. OLD MAYAN JADE PENDANT

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IF YOU CAN SCRATCH IT WITH A METAL SCRIBE ITS NOT JADE YOU MENTIONED IT SCRATCHED WHITE IF SO, ITS WHITE BUT NOT JADE.

This is only valid for Jadeite. Nephrite, which is also considered genuine Jade and commands higher prices, can be easily scratched.

A. G. Maisey · 21st November 2016, 11:38 PM

Marius, that's a maybe yes, maybe no thing. Scratching I mean.

For gemstone testing we use picks of varying hardness.

The generally accepted MOHs hardness for jadeite is 6.5 to 7

The generally accepted MOHs hardness for nephrite is 6 to 6.5

Individual specimens of both minerals can test higher or lower

I have a range of picks that I bought as a set, but the one I carry when I'm cruisin' with money in my pocket tests for 6.5.

That 6.5 test pick has not to date managed to scratch nephrite, and it won't go anywhere near jadeite.

6.5 MOHS is something like mid-80's Rockwell --- maybe 85 or 86 Rockwell

For comparison, a table knife is about 56-58 Rockwell, a decent hunting knife or pocket knife is about 59-62 Rockwell.

In Australia there are good deposits of nephrite in South Australia, and across in New Zealand it is also reasonably common. I've seen a photo of a lump of nephrite in Canada that was as big as a house.

A mineral that is very often presented as, and mistaken for nephrite is serpentine, a lot of Northern Indian daggers that supposedly have jade hilts are in fact serpentine. This has a MOHs hardness of MOHs 3 to 6, so at the top of its range is almost indistinguishable from nephrite at the bottom of the nephrite range.

With gem quality Jadeite, the stuff that is used for rings, rather than bracelets, the best stuff supposedly used to come from Burma (Myanmar).

mariusgmioc · 22nd November 2016, 09:43 AM

Thank you Alan for this very interesting information!
As I understand, it confirms that scratching is not very reliable when it comes to nephrite as you may end up scratching a piece of legit, albeit softer nephrite. Or did I misunerstood something?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd November 2016, 10:13 AM

Yeah, that's about it Marius.

Ideally one would carry several picks and work up, and of course it is wise to test in a place where it won't be seen.

19th November 2016, 09:35 AM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Jade or not?! Hello, Is this jade? Regards, Marius Attached Images

19th November 2016, 09:37 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Well, if you think it is... you are wrong. It is in fact Onyx. It comes from central Anatolia in Turkey wher it is found in abundance. Attached Images

19th November 2016, 05:11 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A TRICKY THING TO TELL FROM PICTURES ESPECIALLY THE WHITE HORSE BUT I GUESSED CORRECTLY. I AM ALSO A ROCKHOUND FOR EVEN LONGER THAN I AM A SWORDHOUND. THERE IS QUITE A LOT OF ONYX FOUND IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA AND IT IS OFTEN CARVED INTO ANIMALS AND VASES THERE TOO. THE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR STONE ALABASTER IS ALSO FOUND AND CARVED HERE AS WELL AS IN EGYPT AND ELSEWHERE. THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL STONES BUT ARE NOT AS STRONG OR HEAVY AS JADE AND WILL CERTAINLY CHIP OR BREAK IF DROPPED. THEY ARE MUCH SOFTER AND EASILY WORKED WHERE JADE IS NOT FAST OR EASY TO WORK. THEY STILL MAKE MEXICAN ONYX ANIMALS, BOOK ENDS , BOWLS, JEWELRY AND VASES IN MEXICO BUT HAVE STARTED MAKING LARGER FURNITURE AND ARCHITECTURAL USE OF ONYX AS WELL. #1. SMALL ONYX ELEPHANT MEXICO #2. ONYX LAMP #3. ONYX COFFEE TABLE #4. LARGE MEXICAN ORANGE ONYX SLAB #5. ONYX LIGHTED BAR #6. ONYX HALLWAY Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 19th November 2016 at 06:19 PM.

20th November 2016, 10:58 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	A quick, on the spot test to identify a jade possibility is to try to scratch the stone with a scriber. The usual jade substitutes will scratch, jade will not. It is a possibility test only, but it has saved me an error or two in the past. Going back a few years I used to sell gemstones to jewellers and lapidiarists in Central Jawa and Bali. Apart from opals and sapphires, the most popular stone I sold to them was good quality chrysoprase. I sold this as rough, and it was marketed as "Hong Kong Jade". The recent glass look-a-likes are really a trap, in a market setting, they are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing.

20th November 2016, 11:19 PM	#5
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	No.. I dont think so. different from this .. not onyx http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22064

21st November 2016, 02:21 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Not long ago a friend of mine travelled to China and while in Beijing she wanted to buy a genuine Jade statue. Luckily she has a very knowledgeable Chinese friend and also did a lot of research on jade. However, after several days of looking through both high end art shops and second hand markets, the only place where she could get with certainty genuine jade was at the Geological Museum of China. And it didn't come cheap, but she got a lovely nephrite statue of a cat. So genuine jade (nephrite or jadeite) is quite hard to find and quite expensive. Almost all Indian "Mughal" daggers with "jade" hilts we see frequently on sale, are not jade but other similarly looking stones or even glass.

21st November 2016, 04:23 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JADE OCCURS IN MANY COLORS THRU OUT THE WORLD AND THERE IS A LARGE SUPPLY. TOP QUALITY JADE (NEPHRITE) OR JADEITE IS RARE AND BRINGS THE BEST PRICES SO IS THE MOST IN DEMAND. IN ANCIENT CHINA THE WHITE TRANSLUCENT NEPHRITE JADE WAS THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER AND EXPENSIVE. TODAY THE GREEN IMPERIAL GRADE JADEITE IS LIKELY THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER AND EXPENSIVE. GOOD JADE IS EXPENSIVE SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE JADE BUT IS NOT IS CHEAP SO IF IT CAN BE PASSED OFF AS JADE THE PROFIT IS MUCH GREATER HENCE THE PROLIFERATION OF JADE SUBSTITUTES. BESIDES THE CHINESE WANT TO KEEP ALL THE GOOD JADE FOR THEMSELVES. IF YOU CAN SCRATCH IT WITH A METAL SCRIBE ITS NOT JADE YOU MENTIONED IT SCRATCHED WHITE IF SO, ITS WHITE BUT NOT JADE. #1. THRU #6. VARIOUS COLORS OF JADEITE CARVED IN CHINA #7. CHINESE YELLOW NEPHRITE JADE A LOWER QUALITY DUE TO IT NOT BEING PURE WHITE AND TRANSLUCENT. #8. & # 9. JADE SHOP AT HOKITIKA NEW ZEALAND. MAORI JADE NEPHRITE THERE ARE SEVERAL VARIOUS MAORI NAMES FOR DIFFERENT TYPES OF JADES ALL FOUND ON THE SOUTH ISLAND. #10 IS A PIECE OF JADE I FOUND ON THE BEACH AT HOKITIKA IT IS SITTING ON A LARGE PIECE OF DRIFTWOOD NEAR WHERE IT WAS FOUND. #11. CLOSE UP LIGHTED FROM BEHIND OF A MAORI PENDANT SHOWING A VERY GOOD QUALITY PIECE OF ONE TYPE OF MAORI JADE. #12. OLD MAYAN JADE PENDANT Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd November 2016 at 04:11 AM.

21st November 2016, 11:38 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Marius, that's a maybe yes, maybe no thing. Scratching I mean. For gemstone testing we use picks of varying hardness. The generally accepted MOHs hardness for jadeite is 6.5 to 7 The generally accepted MOHs hardness for nephrite is 6 to 6.5 Individual specimens of both minerals can test higher or lower I have a range of picks that I bought as a set, but the one I carry when I'm cruisin' with money in my pocket tests for 6.5. That 6.5 test pick has not to date managed to scratch nephrite, and it won't go anywhere near jadeite. 6.5 MOHS is something like mid-80's Rockwell --- maybe 85 or 86 Rockwell For comparison, a table knife is about 56-58 Rockwell, a decent hunting knife or pocket knife is about 59-62 Rockwell. In Australia there are good deposits of nephrite in South Australia, and across in New Zealand it is also reasonably common. I've seen a photo of a lump of nephrite in Canada that was as big as a house. A mineral that is very often presented as, and mistaken for nephrite is serpentine, a lot of Northern Indian daggers that supposedly have jade hilts are in fact serpentine. This has a MOHs hardness of MOHs 3 to 6, so at the top of its range is almost indistinguishable from nephrite at the bottom of the nephrite range. With gem quality Jadeite, the stuff that is used for rings, rather than bracelets, the best stuff supposedly used to come from Burma (Myanmar).

22nd November 2016, 09:43 AM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Thank you Alan for this very interesting information! As I understand, it confirms that scratching is not very reliable when it comes to nephrite as you may end up scratching a piece of legit, albeit softer nephrite. Or did I misunerstood something?

22nd November 2016, 10:13 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,888	Yeah, that's about it Marius. Ideally one would carry several picks and work up, and of course it is wise to test in a place where it won't be seen.