Talismanic inscription on keris

panah · 16th November 2016, 04:22 AM

Greetings everyone,

I am in a midst of doing research on Keris an stumbled upon 4 keris with almost identical talismanic numerals. I am quite profound with the Jawi writings but this these inscription also include an "inverted B". Anyone familiar with this style of inscriptions or perhaps provide any references on this topic for me to start with?

Thank you in advance.

kai · 16th November 2016, 10:21 AM

Hello Panah,

Quote:

I am in a midst of doing research on Keris an stumbled upon 4 keris with almost identical talismanic numerals.

Are all 4 currently in the same collection?

The 2nd and 3rd keris went through the hands of Robert Hales and are featured in his book. I believe I saw pics of similar (or possibly the same) keris elsewhere but a quick search in my files failed to retrieve anything of note. Maybe Gustav or our Malay forumites are willing to chime in here?

BTW, please keep us posted on your results!

Quote:

I am quite profound with the Jawi writings but this these inscription also include an "inverted B". Anyone familiar with this style of inscriptions or perhaps provide any references on this topic for me to start with?

Your best bet is to contact Michael (aka VVV here in the forum) via PM, I guess.

David? Again, any input from the forumites would be great!

Regards,
Kai

David · 16th November 2016, 01:30 PM

Some nice and interesting examples presented here. I am not very adept a Jawi writing so i am not particularly certain about the symbol that looks like a reversed "B". Perhaps it is so variation on the Jawi number 9, which i don't see otherwise presented in these sequences, but that is nothing more than a guess.
These are, of course, as you have noted, talismanic in nature. I believe they are much akin to magickal squares that can be found throughout Western magickal histories. Not to discourage your research, but deciphering such talismanic sequences would be a near impossible task. These undoubtably had a very important and personal significance to the person who placed them there, but their exact meaning is not really intended for anyone else to know, i'm afraid.
BTW, i must point out that while you describe these as "almost identical numerals" i believe it is quite the opposite. Yes, the numerals themselves are all similar, but the numerical sequences on each of these blades is quite unique, nothing like the other, and would have completely different personal talismanic meanings to their original owners. We could not say the "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina" are almost identical simple because they both contain a sequence of similar letters strung together in a similar format.

Battara · 16th November 2016, 04:01 PM

You may also want to contact Oliver Pinchot by email - he's done jawi for me on a Moro kris.

panah · 17th November 2016, 09:47 AM

Thank you Kai, David & Battara for your replies. Also thank you Rick for guiding me on how to properly post in this thread. I will try my best to keep up with the do's and don'ts of this forum and update on the progress of this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Panah,

Are all 4 currently in the same collection?

The 2nd and 3rd keris went through the hands of Robert Hales and are featured in his book. I believe I saw pics of similar (or possibly the same) keris elsewhere but a quick search in my files failed to retrieve anything of note. Maybe Gustav or our Malay forumites are willing to chime in here?

BTW, please keep us posted on your results!

Your best bet is to contact Michael (aka VVV here in the forum) via PM, I guess.

David? Again, any input from the forumites would be great!

Regards,
Kai

1. Yes, all 4 are in the same collection of a total number of 12 keris. Only four of these have talismanic inscriptions on the blades.

2. You are absolutely right, three of them, 2nd 3rd and 4th are in Robert Hales book: page 118 & 131. (I will update you if they are really the ones in the book or just similar).

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Some nice and interesting examples presented here. I am not very adept a Jawi writing so i am not particularly certain about the symbol that looks like a reversed "B". Perhaps it is so variation on the Jawi number 9, which i don't see otherwise presented in these sequences, but that is nothing more than a guess.
These are, of course, as you have noted, talismanic in nature. I believe they are much akin to magickal squares that can be found throughout Western magickal histories. Not to discourage your research, but deciphering such talismanic sequences would be a near impossible task. These undoubtably had a very important and personal significance to the person who placed them there, but their exact meaning is not really intended for anyone else to know, i'm afraid.
BTW, i must point out that while you describe these as "almost identical numerals" i believe it is quite the opposite. Yes, the numerals themselves are all similar, but the numerical sequences on each of these blades is quite unique, nothing like the other, and would have completely different personal talismanic meanings to their original owners. We could not say the "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina" are almost identical simple because they both contain a sequence of similar letters strung together in a similar format.

I strongly agree with you, David. My approach is merely to understand the influence of these talismanic numerals from perhaps other region - Arabia or India. It would be great if any of the forumites who happens to have talismanic inscriptions on their keris to share & discuss about this topic. I have seen talismanic elements in medallions, coins and azimat.

Below is one sample of azimat (tangkal, charm) and it happens to have similar elements as found on the blades.

rasdan · 24th November 2016, 03:34 PM

Hi Panah,

This is a nice topic. If you don't mind, may I know where are you based? Do you study the keris as whole or just the talismanic symbolism on the keris?

Apart from the "B" symbol, I am curious about the the "4" and "O" symbol as well. I originally thought the "O" represents the number 5, but since the numbers are probably written in Persian/Urdu, then probably "O" is actually zero (0) ? The picture bellow summarises my thoughts. Do you think this is logical?

kai · 24th November 2016, 11:19 PM

Hello Panah,

Quote:

1. Yes, all 4 are in the same collection of a total number of 12 keris. Only four of these have talismanic inscriptions on the blades.

Thanks, that's an amazing collection, especially this group of keris with talismanic inlays!

Quote:

2. You are absolutely right, three of them, 2nd 3rd and 4th are in Robert Hales book: page 118 & 131. (I will update you if they are really the ones in the book or just similar).

Those 3 are definitely in the book!

Regards,
Kai

panah · 25th May 2022, 09:14 AM

Hi all,
I thought of reviving this thread and continue this topic.

Pardon my long absence for this thread, life can be too hard and plates can be too full, literally. I need to say, my research is actually broader than 'keris abjad' or 'keris bertatah', the names that they are used to be called. For me, this is another phase of keris development, the inclusion of Islamic elements by the form of art. I also encountered few keris with wafaq, (wifiq for those grammatically particular

) and also interesting 'Muthanna' type of embelishment.

@rasdan, that was a nice input and you are right about the Persian/Urdu influence. In fact, the their influence is also key to the development of Jawi script and Malay lexicons. And I am in Kuala Lumpur too, to answer your question.

Dealing with topic talismanic, azimat (jimat), charms is not easy coz it need understanding the practice itself - @David was right. What I can conclude is for this particular type of charm cannot be deciphered, although it is possible for magic squares or rajah. Yes it created beautiful pattern add character of the blades, but it is also not just mere decoration- only the scribe knew what it is intended for. It is something like recreating pamor, but just in the principles. Just like actual pamor, we can only guess or relate their actual meaning and capabilities.

And this ,i believe, is the form of art of the 18th century onwards where in the early days was limited to royal families. My basis is where Islamic world decorative techniques really absorbed and implemented in the region as seen on the blades. Interestingly, this collection of Peninsular keris were actually from the East Coast, once owned by a royal blood kerabat before it went to the hands of several European collectors.

And, only 12 found their way back to Malaysia.

I noticed another post about Keris Abjad, using my images too, I hope we could merge it here so it could gain good information on this subject.

Selamat semuanya

panah · 13th June 2022, 11:20 AM

I just want to share a recent finding on the content of a kitab that might shed light on the keris abjad and the inscriptions. There is sort of a formula for it and there is a commentary written in Buginese Lontara towards the end. And this manuscript is about traditional healing - adding more mystery.

Gavin Nugent · 15th June 2022, 12:58 AM

A very interesting subject. All very rare and beautiful keris.

I've not shared this publicly before.

An inlaid Malaysian spear of robust fighting size and form.

Both sides are inlaid in this manner, total variations to each side.
The side pictured with the Alif" pamor, nil pamor to the reverse.

A point I particularly notice is;

This spear and other keris with Inlaid scripts I hold, they all well raised above the surfaces like the Mughal Lucknow ZarBuland method

All these keris in the discussion with repeated motifs/scripts, the inlay is all flush with the metal surfaces.

Gavin

16th November 2016, 04:22 AM	#1
panah Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4	Talismanic inscription on keris Greetings everyone, I am in a midst of doing research on Keris an stumbled upon 4 keris with almost identical talismanic numerals. I am quite profound with the Jawi writings but this these inscription also include an "inverted B". Anyone familiar with this style of inscriptions or perhaps provide any references on this topic for me to start with? Thank you in advance. Attached Images Last edited by panah; 16th November 2016 at 04:34 AM.

24th November 2016, 03:34 PM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Panah, This is a nice topic. If you don't mind, may I know where are you based? Do you study the keris as whole or just the talismanic symbolism on the keris? Apart from the "B" symbol, I am curious about the the "4" and "O" symbol as well. I originally thought the "O" represents the number 5, but since the numbers are probably written in Persian/Urdu, then probably "O" is actually zero (0) ? The picture bellow summarises my thoughts. Do you think this is logical? Attached Images

13th June 2022, 11:20 AM	#9
panah Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4	I just want to share a recent finding on the content of a kitab that might shed light on the keris abjad and the inscriptions. There is sort of a formula for it and there is a commentary written in Buginese Lontara towards the end. And this manuscript is about traditional healing - adding more mystery. Attached Images

15th June 2022, 12:58 AM	#10
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A very interesting subject. All very rare and beautiful keris. I've not shared this publicly before. An inlaid Malaysian spear of robust fighting size and form. Both sides are inlaid in this manner, total variations to each side. The side pictured with the Alif" pamor, nil pamor to the reverse. A point I particularly notice is; This spear and other keris with Inlaid scripts I hold, they all well raised above the surfaces like the Mughal Lucknow ZarBuland method All these keris in the discussion with repeated motifs/scripts, the inlay is all flush with the metal surfaces. Gavin Attached Images

16th November 2016, 01:30 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Some nice and interesting examples presented here. I am not very adept a Jawi writing so i am not particularly certain about the symbol that looks like a reversed "B". Perhaps it is so variation on the Jawi number 9, which i don't see otherwise presented in these sequences, but that is nothing more than a guess. These are, of course, as you have noted, talismanic in nature. I believe they are much akin to magickal squares that can be found throughout Western magickal histories. Not to discourage your research, but deciphering such talismanic sequences would be a near impossible task. These undoubtably had a very important and personal significance to the person who placed them there, but their exact meaning is not really intended for anyone else to know, i'm afraid. BTW, i must point out that while you describe these as "almost identical numerals" i believe it is quite the opposite. Yes, the numerals themselves are all similar, but the numerical sequences on each of these blades is quite unique, nothing like the other, and would have completely different personal talismanic meanings to their original owners. We could not say the "War and Peace" and "Anna Karenina" are almost identical simple because they both contain a sequence of similar letters strung together in a similar format.

16th November 2016, 04:01 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	You may also want to contact Oliver Pinchot by email - he's done jawi for me on a Moro kris.

25th May 2022, 09:14 AM	#8
panah Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 4	Hi all, I thought of reviving this thread and continue this topic. Pardon my long absence for this thread, life can be too hard and plates can be too full, literally. I need to say, my research is actually broader than 'keris abjad' or 'keris bertatah', the names that they are used to be called. For me, this is another phase of keris development, the inclusion of Islamic elements by the form of art. I also encountered few keris with wafaq, (wifiq for those grammatically particular ) and also interesting 'Muthanna' type of embelishment. @rasdan, that was a nice input and you are right about the Persian/Urdu influence. In fact, the their influence is also key to the development of Jawi script and Malay lexicons. And I am in Kuala Lumpur too, to answer your question. Dealing with topic talismanic, azimat (jimat), charms is not easy coz it need understanding the practice itself - @David was right. What I can conclude is for this particular type of charm cannot be deciphered, although it is possible for magic squares or rajah. Yes it created beautiful pattern add character of the blades, but it is also not just mere decoration- only the scribe knew what it is intended for. It is something like recreating pamor, but just in the principles. Just like actual pamor, we can only guess or relate their actual meaning and capabilities. And this ,i believe, is the form of art of the 18th century onwards where in the early days was limited to royal families. My basis is where Islamic world decorative techniques really absorbed and implemented in the region as seen on the blades. Interestingly, this collection of Peninsular keris were actually from the East Coast, once owned by a royal blood kerabat before it went to the hands of several European collectors. And, only 12 found their way back to Malaysia. I noticed another post about Keris Abjad, using my images too, I hope we could merge it here so it could gain good information on this subject. Selamat semuanya