Kris for discussion

[naga82]

Hi all nice to be here. Please my i have your comments good or bad on this sword. I found it in java. I just guessed dutch influenced blade but i am a novice collector.

Thanks

[Sajen]

It's an old Javanese pedang IMVHO. Not a keris or kris. BTW, welcome to the forum.

See for a similar blade here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...avanese+pedang

[Sajen]

All what I can say about your sword is said already from Alan G. Maisey in post #15 in the above given thread with some exceptions. The dress of your blade is older, maybe from the turn of the centuries until early 20th century but for sure not the first dress.

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

I agree with Sajen completely.

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, I agree that this is a pretty nice pedang, I also agree that the scabbard is much more recent than the blade, but the brass of the hilt is original.

The grip itself may or may not be original, and it was certainly never stained green originally.

This pedang should become a restoration project, the grip should be replaced with well fitted wood, the scabbard should be replaced with a properly sewn leather one. In actual use the scabbards of these old pedangs seemed to be nearly always leather. The originals got lost, or decayed, and they were replaced with wood, which is probably superior as a long term solution when the weapon is not actually being used. However, in this case I'd probably opt for leather, because we still have the original brass hilt, and that is something that is pretty scarce. This pedang could be brought back to what it was when it was first made.

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

I am not sure how the original scabbards are worked, I've handled once a similar pedang with a scabbard fragment, it was wood covered with leather but have seen also some with pure leather fragments. Any suggestions from you? And which wood would you personally prefer as grip?

Best regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

When I said "leather", I was thinking of the normal sort of leather construction that is saddle leather over very thin liners of wood:- its not a wooden scabbard, its a leather scabbard, but it is lined with wood. Lots of old sword scabbards were made this way, I cannot recall seeing an old sword scabbard that was all leather.

Knife sheaths from European based cultures are most often of leather , and most often without wooden liners, but very frequently a knife sheath will have the stitching protected by an inlay of leather that is between the two faces of the sheath. When I've made sheaths for the knives I've made myself I've made them in this way.

I've seen a lot of old Indian swords with these wood lined leather scabbards, but even though probably most Javanese swords had leather scabbards from at least early colonial times, these days it is very, very seldom that you find a Javanese pedang in its original leather scabbard. They've become a real rarity.

As for what sort of wood I'd use for a grip, if I was in Jawa I'd probably use sono. There's another wood that I've forgotten the name of that is used a lot for tool handles in Jawa, I'd be happy with that too. I wouldn't use cendono jowo, its easy to work, but in my opinion a bit too prone to fracture for a sword hilt. If I had to do the job here in Australia, I'd probably use one of the Australian hardwoods that are used for tool handles, maybe spotted gum.

[Sajen]

Thank you Alan for the like usual clear and elaborately respond. Yes, this is what I've meant, I know the scabbards from this Javanese pedangs are made this way, with wooden liners.
I've asked because most of the Luzon leather scabbards are all leather ones. You know maybe that I am interested to Luzon swords, so my question. Over there it's the exception to see reinforced leather scabbard with wooden liners.
And like you I know that it's more as seldom to find a Javanese pedang in original sarung, most blades have replacement sarungs and also hilts.

Like you I would like to see this pedang well restored, to seldom you get the chance.

Regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

Hello Naga82,

maybe try carefully to remove the green paint. Try very fine steel wool, I think this will work, repolish the handle with some sort fine grind polish and oil the wooden or horn hilt. The sword would win already by this. Are all parts of the handle free from play?

Regards,
Detlef

[Battara]

Some good points, Alan. Also never noticed the green grip.

[naga82]

The stained green grip moves quite a bit.

Can i tighten it somhow?

[naga82]

I forgot to say hi all and thanks for your comments. Very interesting.
On the subject of pedang dress. I think these are lombok pedang very nice dress wood silver abd bamboo wrap. One blade has a mark . Is it a date mark i wonder?

Jj

[naga82]

Sorry missed the upload button. Do you mean a dress like this example ?

Thanks as well for all the comments. Very helpfull

[Sajen]

Your both very nice Lombok pedang are complete other swords as your Javanese one, your both have the original wooden scabbards.

Regards,
Detlef

[naga82]

Any ideas on the eyelash type mark on both sides of the blade?
Thanks jj

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by naga82

Any ideas on the eyelash type mark on both sides of the blade?
Thanks jj

It could be that this the lines from a pamor tambal. But this would be only clear when you polish and etch the blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[GIO]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Your both very nice Lombok pedang .....

Regards,
Detlef

Lombok ?? I think Sumatra Palembang

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

Lombok ?? I think Sumatra Palembang

Tomy knowledge they are from Lombok, the very similar ones from Sumatra look different.

Regards,
Detlef

[ariel]

Replace the handle, make new scabbard....

Are we preparing this sword for WWIII?

This is an antique, for Heavens sake!

I think we need to show a bit more respect to this old warrior.

[GIO]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Tomy knowledge they are from Lombok, the very similar ones from Sumatra look different.

Regards,
Detlef

I admit my limited knowledge and accept the opinion of much more experienced friends.
I take this opportunity to ask what are the details which can identify the origin Lombok or Sumatra. Thanks for your kindness.
Gio

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

I admit my limited knowledge and accept the opinion of much more experienced friends.
I take this opportunity to ask what are the details which can identify the origin Lombok or Sumatra. Thanks for your kindness.
Gio

Hello GIO,

I don't know if I am more experienced as you (I doubt ) but I will try to show it. I don't have Sumatra pedangs in my collection, only two from Lombok so I have to look for examples from which I think that they could originate from Sumatra.
Examples from Lombok have been 20 years ago relative cheap and many times offered in Indonesia and also by ebay they have been seen many times for very good prices.
Lombok examples: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=lombok+pedang & http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang

And here you can see Sumatra examples (like said to my humble understanding): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang and in fact the examples 1, 9, 14 and 15 and maybe 2. The others in this thread to my understanding from Lombok.

Best regards,
Detlef

[Sajen]

And look this post: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=16 from this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang which you should read complete since I think that the attribution of this type of pendang is unclear already long.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ariel, I do understand that from your perspective the comments I have made in respect of the ideal restoration for this pedang might seem a little extreme. However, we form our opinions based upon our experience and background:- your experience and background indicates that the restoration I would deem to be suitable is going too far, whereas my experience and background tells me that I am looking at something that has been very poorly treated in the past and now deserves to be given some respect.

When dealing with the respected iron (tosan aji) of Indonesia, and of Jawa and Bali in particular, we need to try to understand that it is the iron component alone of a weapon that holds the spirit of the weapon, the hilt and scabbard are merely dress items. The parallel can be drawn, and in Javanese thought is drawn, with a human being:- a man stripped of his clothing contains his spirit within, it is the man we value, not the clothing. Similarly with a weapon:- it is the blade we value, the dress is a passing thing.

If this pedang were to fall into the hands of a Javanese gentleman who followed traditional values, it would probably be stripped of that hilt, and the inferior scabbard, and totally redressed in a bespoke hilt and scabbard of scented sandalwood. The blade would be minimally reshaped to remove rough edges, the faces of the blade may, or may not be slightly re-polished, then restained. In short, it would undergo a complete renovation, the objective of which would be to bring the tosan aji component of this pedang to a standard which would assist in the continuation of its life --- yes, it is alive --- for following generations.

Anybody who has received traditional instruction in the field of Javanese values would recognise that these actions described above are a duty to the maker of this blade, to its previous owners, and to the culture of which all are a part.

I understand that this is a slightly different way of looking at things from the usual way in which collectors of antiques from Western cultures look at what they collect, but in the thought patterns of the culture from which this pedang comes, it is not really an antique, it is tosan aji, and as such a living thing.

[GIO]

Hi Detlef,
many thanks for your kind answer.
After reading your post and the various references you have supplied, I found this subject not so simple to understand. I came nevertheless to two conclusions:
1. the hilt is not a distinctive characteristic,
2. when the blade is similar to that of a western sword, its origin is Lombok .
I hope to be not so far from the correct interpretation. If not please apologize: clearly I need some more experience in the field of Indonesian weapons.
Thanks again for your help.
Gio

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

1. the hilt is not a distinctive characteristic,
2. when the blade is similar to that of a western sword, its origin is Lombok .
I hope to be not so far from the correct interpretation. If not please apologize: clearly I need some more experience in the field of Indonesian weapons.

Hi Gio,

when you look again to the links I've provided in up you will see that the Lombok examples have all similar hilts, so to to your first statement I can't agree complete. For point two yes but for sure there will be exceptions.
But please keep in mind that this is just my humble opinion and like always I could be wrong.

Best regards,
Detlef

[GIO]

Hi Detlef,
here is my pedang. IMHO it is Sumatran. What is your opinion ?
Sorry for the bad pics and thanks in advance.
Gio

[kai]

Sorry, Gio, we do need better pics!

Especially close-ups of the hilt would be important (and also a full view of the scabbard). Any special features of the blade?

Since this is a very different beast, I'd suggest to open a new thread for your piece.

Regards,
Kai

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by GIO

IMHO it is Sumatran. What is your opinion ?

Hi GIO,

look to the tripartite handle collar and as well the flow of the scabbard, very similar to the both examples from naga82 so I would think that your example is from Lombok. But like Kai I would like to see better pictures.

Regards,
Detlef

[Rick]

Here is an example within the context of culture.
Maybe there are some clues.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

Here is an example within the context of culture.
Maybe there are some clues.

Hello Rick,

do you know from where exact this picture?

Regards,
Detlef