Research help needed please!

Katius · 19th February 2006, 07:40 PM

Hi, I bought this spear in an antique shop the other week. I'm currently studying Conservation and Restoration and need as much help as I can get to try and identify it.
I have found through tests etc that the head is iron, the staff is cane and the wire that is bound around it is galvanised zinc.

I've emailed alot of African provinces but many of them don't know anything about it. When I bought it, it was labelled a 'fish spear' although I personally don't believe that due to the size of the hooks on the edge of the spearhead.
I have attached the photos

If anyone can help I would appreciate it VERY much!!!

Thank you.
Kate

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 08:05 PM

Hello Kate,

I do not know if this will help but I am pretty sure it is from somewhere in Central Africa where the use of zinc is common for decorative purposes. I suspect the Congo. There are not that many ways to make barbs on a spear, however they can still be distinctive. Look at this copper currency spear head and note the method of forming the barbs in contrast to the Nuer, so called fishing spear. I am sure it will not be too long before other members give a more accurate origin. Tim

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 08:11 PM

I forgot to mention that I doubt your spear ever had a stabbing function. There might be info on such things in the archive. Tim

Katius · 19th February 2006, 08:17 PM

Thanks so much for that, thats going to help out loads, I just didn't know where to start then I came across this forum!

I was told it was South African then someone else told me it was from the Ivory Coast so yours seems more realistic so Thank You!!!

Kate

Tim Simmons · 19th February 2006, 08:25 PM

Jolly good thing to start with, you had better be careful or you might get bitten and become a nerd like the rest of us and turn all your money into old weapons

. Tim

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2006, 05:11 PM

Hi Tim,
I think your assessment of this being most likely from the Congo regions is most plausible, and there seem to be a number of varities of both arrows and spears using numerous styles of 'barbing'.

This example seem extremely crudely forged and the barbs seem very rudimentary. I was looking through some various sources to check the many forms of barbed hunting and war spears and arrows, mostly Oceanic and from the Philippines to compare this example. Obviously these are typically made from varying types of wood material, so would not likely include this spear.
I noticed an interesting reference to significance of the barbs however in Kriegers' work on Philippine weapons (Smithsonian, 1926, p.45) noting that "...occurrence of multiple barbs in the iron spearheads of the Bontok Igorot insure protection against the 'anitos' or evil spirits".

In your experience do you think possibly that these seemingly rudimentary barbs on this example may have similar talismanic significance, even though it is clearly from an unrelated sphere? Although the practical purpose of the barbs on hunting, or as often seen, poisoned weapons, is clear...it seems that numeric symbolism may have some place with a weapon that as you have suggested may have ceremonial intent.

Kate,
Very intriguing specimen! It's good to see that you are studying the conservation of these most important weapons. I am always relieved when they fall into the hands of responsible individuals who will not overclean or otherwise destroy the integrity of the piece, and properly maintain it to preserve its history. Thank you!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 06:15 PM

Hi Jim

I would agree that the example Kate shows us may well function as a talisman, it does not appear to be a currency piece and the purposely crude forging must express something as the crudity is atypical of Congo metalwork. Also the dressing up of such a crude looking spear head does seem to suggest an occult value. Tim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 06:31 PM

I spoke to some people who are also doing my course and they said it could be used as an arrow?
I don't really know.

A lot of people have been saying it could be just for rituals etc.

I wish there was a book on tribes and their weapons and what they look like, just a general overview!

What I have found out so far is this:
The head is iron
The head and shaft are attached through the metalwork being tightly pushed around the cane.
The wire is galvanised zinc.
The shaft is cane - i think - and has been broken at the end.

That is as much as I have personally found out!

The research into it is really interesting but of all the websites I've been on I haven't seen anything like it at all!

There aren't any markings on it anywhere but you can see how the head has been forged (is that right?) to give it the flatness.

Many thanks for your feedback, I hope we can find out where its from in the end!!!

Kate

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 06:43 PM

Trying to find the exact "tribal" group may be stretching things a little, I think it is pretty sound to say it is a ritual piece for the Congo which narrows it down to an area roughly the size of western Europe. Try the search facility here, you should find other ritual spears, I have post a few of mine here

. I think if this is your first dip in the waters then you have done very well. I think you are hooked. Tim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 06:47 PM

Yes, you're right - I think I'm getting hooked!
I've always loved stuff like this but never knew where to start and we needed to get something to work on for our current unit at university and I saw this!
Do you have any idea how much it would be worth? I bought it for £12, is that reasonable?

Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it!

Kate

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 06:53 PM

oooooo! no, no, we do not talk money here. lets just say for what it is and the condition, you got a real bargin. Be sure to post any other interesting things you find. Tim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 06:55 PM

eek! Sorry, I didn't realise! I'm new! Sorry

Just looking at the ritual stuff, theres some good things on here!

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2006, 06:59 PM

Thanks very much Tim, the more I look at this the more I think of Congo as well, and especially the talismanic possibilities.

Kate,
I'm with you, I wish there was a simple book to concisely show us each tribe and exactly which weapons were used by each. However in ethnographic weapons study nothing is ever simple. By thier very nature, tribal people move, diffuse and are constantly in varying degrees of change and movement, still maintaining key traditions tempered by encroaching or encountered influences. In Africa, there is a considerable degree of artistic license and symbolic application to weapons, thus the wide range of variation in the forms of weapons used, and as you have noted, depending on the intended use.
Spears come in many sizes and are used in numerous ways, so many shafted weapons of larger size mistaken for spears are often actually employed as arrows. This is more typical of Oceanic weaponry, especially that of Melanesia
(see "Arrows of Melanesia: A Neglected Art Form" by David Skinner, in "Tribal Arts" , Summer 2000, Vol.VI, #2, pp.86-99). The heading of the article notes, "...they're not spears".

As we always say here, 'more research is needed', so we'll keep looking

All the best,
Jim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 08:57 PM

Thanks for that Jim, I'm going to the Library tomorrow so I might find something there, if I find anything I'll post it on here.

Do you know any online valuation services?
I have to include the general value in my report for it...

Many thanks

Kate

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 09:10 PM

Kate you have a private message.

Katius · 21st February 2006, 01:13 AM

Thanks Tim!

Katius · 21st February 2006, 06:32 PM

Hi,
I was looking through a website to see if there was anything remotely like my spear, found something;
I'm going to have a look at that specific tribe and see if I can find anything else!!!

Kate

Tim Simmons · 21st February 2006, 06:38 PM

Another rule from above is that we do not disscus live auctions even if it does look like a dance wand, sorry. Tim

Katius · 21st February 2006, 06:44 PM

God I keep doing that!

Sorry - I don't know the rules yet!!!
Can I put a picture of it on here?

not2sharp · 21st February 2006, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Can I put a picture of it on here?

It would be best to wait until the auction is completed.

n2s

Rick · 21st February 2006, 08:53 PM

Katius , all the information about forum protocol is available in the " Read This Before Posting" title at the top of the column .

Mark · 21st February 2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kate,
I'm with you, I wish there was a simple book to concisely show us each tribe and exactly which weapons were used by each.

Er ... you could write one, Jim. You're pretty consistently the most knowledgeable forumite on African weapons.

Katius · 22nd February 2006, 12:18 AM

Hey, thanks for all that info! I really should have read that - Sorry!!!
Still searching!!!
Thanks
kate

Katius · 22nd February 2006, 02:15 AM

Does anyone know when Galvanised Zinc was first introduced into Africa?

I have been looking on the net and found some things about Kundu and Bakunda which used to be in Zaire which I now believe is Congo - which would match with what was discussed earlier.

Kate

Rick · 22nd February 2006, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katius

Does anyone know when Galvanised Zinc was first introduced into Africa?

I have been looking on the net and found some things about Kundu and Bakunda which used to be in Zaire which I now believe is Congo - which would match with what was discussed earlier.

Kate

Kate , I believe that Zinc is the metal used to galvanise *other* metals such as steel or iron . Possibly a google search on the history of galvanising would enlighten you as to the period you seek .

Tim Simmons · 22nd February 2006, 08:33 AM

Zinc is a very early metal first smelted and used in India/Asia where it is often used as a decorative white metal. I have read that the first smelting of zinc in the Uk was in Bristol around 16th cent. As to its historic use in Africa, I would imagine in Egypt and the North this was early to. Zinc is used on many Sudanese and Somali weapons often confused with aluminium which is ofcourse also used since around 1920. I know zinc was certainly in use in Central Africa In the 19th cent and see now reason even if there was no local smelting , that traded zinc would not have been used earlier. Tim

Katius · 22nd February 2006, 04:31 PM

Did a couple of tests in the lab today - looks like it's iron that has been galvanised with zinc - tested for zinc;50 -75% and red corrosion = iron.

Has cleaned up really well - I'll post some pictures once I've completed it - research still ongoing!!!!

Thanks
Kate

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2006, 06:05 AM

Hi Mark,
Thank you very much for the very nice compliment!

Im just one of a bunch here who get pretty involved in trying to understand these fascinating weapons, which have so much complexity its pretty hard to really have significant command overall. I think our discussions really do put some great perspective on things though....eventually maybe we'll all be co-authors!!

Kate,
Excellent continuing research!! That great, and thank you for keeping us posted. Thats what this is all about, and we can add the data you're finding to our notes.

All the best,
Jim

Katius · 24th February 2006, 09:23 AM

Glad I could be of use!!!
Thanks for all your help with it too, I would have been really stuck without it!
Its really appreciated!
Kate

19th February 2006, 07:40 PM	#1
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Research help needed please! Hi, I bought this spear in an antique shop the other week. I'm currently studying Conservation and Restoration and need as much help as I can get to try and identify it. I have found through tests etc that the head is iron, the staff is cane and the wire that is bound around it is galvanised zinc. I've emailed alot of African provinces but many of them don't know anything about it. When I bought it, it was labelled a 'fish spear' although I personally don't believe that due to the size of the hooks on the edge of the spearhead. I have attached the photos If anyone can help I would appreciate it VERY much!!! Thank you. Kate Attached Images

19th February 2006, 08:17 PM	#4
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Great help! Thanks so much for that, thats going to help out loads, I just didn't know where to start then I came across this forum! I was told it was South African then someone else told me it was from the Ivory Coast so yours seems more realistic so Thank You!!! Kate

21st February 2006, 06:32 PM	#17
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Similar Found . . . Hi, I was looking through a website to see if there was anything remotely like my spear, found something; I'm going to have a look at that specific tribe and see if I can find anything else!!! Kate Last edited by Katius; 21st February 2006 at 06:59 PM.

21st February 2006, 06:44 PM	#19
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	God I keep doing that! Sorry - I don't know the rules yet!!! Can I put a picture of it on here? Last edited by Katius; 21st February 2006 at 06:54 PM.

22nd February 2006, 12:18 AM	#23
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Thanks! Hey, thanks for all that info! I really should have read that - Sorry!!! Still searching!!! Thanks kate

19th February 2006, 08:05 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello Kate, I do not know if this will help but I am pretty sure it is from somewhere in Central Africa where the use of zinc is common for decorative purposes. I suspect the Congo. There are not that many ways to make barbs on a spear, however they can still be distinctive. Look at this copper currency spear head and note the method of forming the barbs in contrast to the Nuer, so called fishing spear. I am sure it will not be too long before other members give a more accurate origin. Tim Attached Images

19th February 2006, 08:11 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I forgot to mention that I doubt your spear ever had a stabbing function. There might be info on such things in the archive. Tim

19th February 2006, 08:25 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Jolly good thing to start with, you had better be careful or you might get bitten and become a nerd like the rest of us and turn all your money into old weapons . Tim

20th February 2006, 05:11 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Tim, I think your assessment of this being most likely from the Congo regions is most plausible, and there seem to be a number of varities of both arrows and spears using numerous styles of 'barbing'. This example seem extremely crudely forged and the barbs seem very rudimentary. I was looking through some various sources to check the many forms of barbed hunting and war spears and arrows, mostly Oceanic and from the Philippines to compare this example. Obviously these are typically made from varying types of wood material, so would not likely include this spear. I noticed an interesting reference to significance of the barbs however in Kriegers' work on Philippine weapons (Smithsonian, 1926, p.45) noting that "...occurrence of multiple barbs in the iron spearheads of the Bontok Igorot insure protection against the 'anitos' or evil spirits". In your experience do you think possibly that these seemingly rudimentary barbs on this example may have similar talismanic significance, even though it is clearly from an unrelated sphere? Although the practical purpose of the barbs on hunting, or as often seen, poisoned weapons, is clear...it seems that numeric symbolism may have some place with a weapon that as you have suggested may have ceremonial intent. Kate, Very intriguing specimen! It's good to see that you are studying the conservation of these most important weapons. I am always relieved when they fall into the hands of responsible individuals who will not overclean or otherwise destroy the integrity of the piece, and properly maintain it to preserve its history. Thank you!!!! All the best, Jim

20th February 2006, 06:15 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hi Jim I would agree that the example Kate shows us may well function as a talisman, it does not appear to be a currency piece and the purposely crude forging must express something as the crudity is atypical of Congo metalwork. Also the dressing up of such a crude looking spear head does seem to suggest an occult value. Tim

20th February 2006, 06:31 PM	#8
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	I spoke to some people who are also doing my course and they said it could be used as an arrow? I don't really know. A lot of people have been saying it could be just for rituals etc. I wish there was a book on tribes and their weapons and what they look like, just a general overview! What I have found out so far is this: The head is iron The head and shaft are attached through the metalwork being tightly pushed around the cane. The wire is galvanised zinc. The shaft is cane - i think - and has been broken at the end. That is as much as I have personally found out! The research into it is really interesting but of all the websites I've been on I haven't seen anything like it at all! There aren't any markings on it anywhere but you can see how the head has been forged (is that right?) to give it the flatness. Many thanks for your feedback, I hope we can find out where its from in the end!!! Kate

20th February 2006, 06:43 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Trying to find the exact "tribal" group may be stretching things a little, I think it is pretty sound to say it is a ritual piece for the Congo which narrows it down to an area roughly the size of western Europe. Try the search facility here, you should find other ritual spears, I have post a few of mine here . I think if this is your first dip in the waters then you have done very well. I think you are hooked. Tim

20th February 2006, 06:47 PM	#10
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Yes, you're right - I think I'm getting hooked! I've always loved stuff like this but never knew where to start and we needed to get something to work on for our current unit at university and I saw this! Do you have any idea how much it would be worth? I bought it for £12, is that reasonable? Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it! Kate

20th February 2006, 06:53 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	oooooo! no, no, we do not talk money here. lets just say for what it is and the condition, you got a real bargin. Be sure to post any other interesting things you find. Tim

20th February 2006, 06:55 PM	#12
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	eek! Sorry, I didn't realise! I'm new! Sorry Just looking at the ritual stuff, theres some good things on here!

20th February 2006, 06:59 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Thanks very much Tim, the more I look at this the more I think of Congo as well, and especially the talismanic possibilities. Kate, I'm with you, I wish there was a simple book to concisely show us each tribe and exactly which weapons were used by each. However in ethnographic weapons study nothing is ever simple. By thier very nature, tribal people move, diffuse and are constantly in varying degrees of change and movement, still maintaining key traditions tempered by encroaching or encountered influences. In Africa, there is a considerable degree of artistic license and symbolic application to weapons, thus the wide range of variation in the forms of weapons used, and as you have noted, depending on the intended use. Spears come in many sizes and are used in numerous ways, so many shafted weapons of larger size mistaken for spears are often actually employed as arrows. This is more typical of Oceanic weaponry, especially that of Melanesia (see "Arrows of Melanesia: A Neglected Art Form" by David Skinner, in "Tribal Arts" , Summer 2000, Vol.VI, #2, pp.86-99). The heading of the article notes, "...they're not spears". As we always say here, 'more research is needed', so we'll keep looking All the best, Jim

20th February 2006, 08:57 PM	#14
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Thanks for that Jim, I'm going to the Library tomorrow so I might find something there, if I find anything I'll post it on here. Do you know any online valuation services? I have to include the general value in my report for it... Many thanks Kate

20th February 2006, 09:10 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Kate you have a private message.

21st February 2006, 01:13 AM	#16
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Thanks Tim!

21st February 2006, 06:38 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Another rule from above is that we do not disscus live auctions even if it does look like a dance wand, sorry. Tim

21st February 2006, 08:53 PM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Katius , all the information about forum protocol is available in the " Read This Before Posting" title at the top of the column .

22nd February 2006, 02:15 AM	#24
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Galvanised Zinc Does anyone know when Galvanised Zinc was first introduced into Africa? I have been looking on the net and found some things about Kundu and Bakunda which used to be in Zaire which I now believe is Congo - which would match with what was discussed earlier. Kate

22nd February 2006, 08:33 AM	#26
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Zinc is a very early metal first smelted and used in India/Asia where it is often used as a decorative white metal. I have read that the first smelting of zinc in the Uk was in Bristol around 16th cent. As to its historic use in Africa, I would imagine in Egypt and the North this was early to. Zinc is used on many Sudanese and Somali weapons often confused with aluminium which is ofcourse also used since around 1920. I know zinc was certainly in use in Central Africa In the 19th cent and see now reason even if there was no local smelting , that traded zinc would not have been used earlier. Tim

22nd February 2006, 04:31 PM	#27
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Did a couple of tests in the lab today - looks like it's iron that has been galvanised with zinc - tested for zinc;50 -75% and red corrosion = iron. Has cleaned up really well - I'll post some pictures once I've completed it - research still ongoing!!!! Thanks Kate

24th February 2006, 06:05 AM	#28
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Mark, Thank you very much for the very nice compliment! Im just one of a bunch here who get pretty involved in trying to understand these fascinating weapons, which have so much complexity its pretty hard to really have significant command overall. I think our discussions really do put some great perspective on things though....eventually maybe we'll all be co-authors!! Kate, Excellent continuing research!! That great, and thank you for keeping us posted. Thats what this is all about, and we can add the data you're finding to our notes. All the best, Jim

24th February 2006, 09:23 AM	#29
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Glad I could be of use!!! Thanks for all your help with it too, I would have been really stuck without it! Its really appreciated! Kate