A tiller/stick cannon for comments

[fernando]

I will call it the Montjuic type; but this is only to give it a name, as influenced by various threads where Matchlock introduced a few of these, as apparently several examples were deacessioned by that ex-military museum from Barcelona.
But in fact i have no actual evidence on the provenance of this cannon, for which i would be much obliged for any help towards it ID. Concerning its age, let us assume it is from circa 1450, as per its characteristics; but corrections will be considered.
Pity that one of its former owners decided to cut off its (apparently) original tiller.
Barrel length: 40 cm.
Total length (without haft stump): 53 cm.
Caliber: 10 mm.
Weight: not yet known.
Better pictures will be posted, when it arrives.


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[ChrisPer]

Thanks for posting, its a very interesting piece. Is the form of flared muzzle very unusual in guns of this type? I note that the reinforce bands have a soft rounded outer surface form and an impression of strength that speaks of some sophistication in craft.

[fernando]

Thank you Chris,
You can often see flared muzzles out there. HERE is one.
We can also see one in the Museum of Tabor, South Bohemia, dated 1419-1434, used in the city during the Husites wars. Attached is a replica of such example. Amazingly that the Checks called these hand cannons P͊T'ALA, meaning tube, which gave the contemporary name pistol (actually pistola in portuguese).

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[Marcus den toom]

It is of Montjuic type, no doubt about that (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=montjuic)

The added barrelmouth piece seems to be Spanish in style. I wil look for medieval sources of Spanish tiller guns to verify this.

All in all a very rare gun.

[Silver Shield]

Fernando ,
That is a really wonderful piece !! Id offer 3 large sea shells , one chicken and three colored round stones ! All joking aside its nice to see these early gonne types and preservation seems very nice . Any Markers Marks ?Or Marks of any kind ?

[fernando]

Thank you Michael,
It is not yet in my possession, but i don't think it has any marks.
However i was told that it is loaded; probably some ball or clod shot in its chamber.

[fernando]

Not much improvement with the new photos. I am not yet motivated to try and extract the contents inside barrel, assuming it is a real ammunition load. I don't have the means to check it close enough nor the tools to pull it out; neither the notion to define whether it is iron or soft lead, which would facilitate the extraction with some screw device.


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[Spiridonov]

Thank You! Very interesting barrel! I will be very interesting to make x-ray photo

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

Thank You! Very interesting barrel! I will be very interesting to make x-ray photo

I am trying to find someone who does this kind of work, Alexander, but i had no results yet.
On the other hand, i measured the interior of the barrel and came to the conclusion that whatever is inside stays within one centimeter from the touch hole ... hardly enough length to contain the load of gunpowder and the projectile.

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[fernando]

X-ray done.
Contrary to my expectations, it was not so difficult to find a place to do it and, also confirming my other expectations, i find it hard to interpreter the images.
I was very well atended by the specialists (from the industrial trade), as they became very interested and wished to help me analize the barrel and the chamber. Besides the X-ray equipment, a boroscope was also used, but without effective results, as its camera was a lateral one and could not visualize frontwards. A pity that the endoscope was out for exterior works and they could not use it.
In any case, one could assume that this gun is not loaded. What i think is visible is a solid section in the core of the chamber, which could well be a sort of plug, even an extension projected from the socket. I wouldn't know how to put this in the propper terms; maybe some of you guys (Alexander?) understand what i am saying or, even better, has the correct idea of what these images represent.
It also looks, at least in my imagination, that the barrel tube was forged in the winding system.
What do you Gentlemen say about this ?

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[Andi]

Wow Fernando! Congratulations to this excellent images. Great!
Unfortunately such images are too rare in the scientific literature on early guns.

I would agree to you that the barrel was forged and welded of a spiral type metal rod - it looks quite obvious.

[Spiridonov]

Originally Posted by fernando

X-ray done.

Hello, Dear Fernando. Thank You very much for the work done. This result show us how important is to do X-rays of 14th and 15th centuries barrels, as they have a fairly complex structure. Unfortunately, we can see this kind of work very rare. It is obvious that the barrel is spiral welded. But it's not the most interesting. The most interesting thing is that the shank of socket is secured not only by press-fitting in the channel of barrel, as due to the fact that between the socket and the shank is a tapered neck. it appears that the shank is held by the sleeve (looks like cup with hole in bottom) into the breech, as the diameter of the holes in the sleeve is less than the diameter of the shank. And it keeps the clutch due to the fact that it's a taper extending from the front end to the rear. I think that way of assemble was such that the shank of the socket inserted into rear end the barrel, then the breech sleeve put on the rear end of the barrel, than sleeve was rolling around the tapered neck of the shank with by a hammer. Do you have any pictures with higher resolution and a more detailed x-ray of the front of the barrel? If so, could you throw on my e-mail ( Spiridonov12@yandex.ru )
With the best regards, Alexander.

[fernando]

What a perfect and comprehensive interpretation of the subject, Alexander. The drawing shows a lot of knowledge and speaks for itself. Thank you for having posted it. I have already emailed you the original high resolution pictures. The part of the barrel mouth is not so much complated as i told the X-ray operators to focus more on the breech section.
Once more thank you so much for the lecture.

[Shakethetrees]

A wonderful thread! Matchlock would be weighing in I'm sure.

To see the x ray scan that leaves a clear image of the hidden construction details is something we only dreamed of just a few years ago.

Thanks!

[fernando]

Amen to that ... both sentences .

[Marcus den toom]

Thank you very much Nando for these X rays of the Tillered hand cannon. It confirms the idea i had about these guns that they are of wound band iron. Combined with the reeinforcing iron bands this could be one of the earliest tiller guns in the world. Wound iron barrels where one of the first type (together with cast brass) and would be the main way to go up to the early 15th century. The only thing withholding me from dating it to the early 15th century for sure is the flared muzzle ring. From the top of my head these where in fashion from about 1430s upward to the 1460s..

The construction of the breech reminds me of some of my tiller hand cannons as well as the montjuic hand cannons, both in Michael's collection and mine. They could be related?

[fernando]

Well Marcus, concerning the origin of this gun and that of its relatives; we may know their provenance but the origin is another thing. We know that a series of these items were property of Montjuic Castle, but not that they have had any action in that place. We also know that museums do not necessarily exhibit the material of the castles where they are situated, the items in exhibiton being a product of donors ... collectors, families and so. Remember the inscription painted in one of these pieces, from Michl's collection (see post #89 and previous):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=SARRIA
Also interesting to notice a detail in the breech construction (shank) in another specimen provenant from Montjuic, also from Michl's collection (see picture attached).
I would then, based on their museum provenance region, donor origins and all, reduce the range of possibilities for the origin of these tiller guns to being Spanish but, what do i know ?


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