Pata sword with European blade

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by fernando

Beautiful examples.
Are you familiar with that mark, Jens ?
.

Look in Kinman page 28, orb and cross, Germany middle of 16th c. could be used later...

Originally Posted by fernando

Posts are being pouring in this same subject in both Ethno and European fora, which somehow disperses discussion efforts.
So if you don't mind, Kubur, we will merge both threads into the Ethno section as, despite the origin of your pata blade is in doubt, the subject is Indian swords.

Yes you are right to merge the threads. Thanks

[Jens Nordlunde]

Originally Posted by fernando

I mean if you this as being a symbol, a mark or part of an inscription, as to whether it helps to trace the origin of this blade.

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

[Jens Nordlunde]

Kubur,
One of the things which makes me say that the blade could be Indian is, that in one of the squares the four petal flower looks like the way they are shown in India, and it could be a Ixora coccinea (Elgood 2004).

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I think it could be a Solingen mark, or maybe an Italian one, but I also think it has been made in India. The orb and cross doesn't shake me, as the blade is pattern welded:-).

Pattern welded...
very flexible (namely suited exclusively for a Pata)...

I am convinced this would be a classic example of an Indian made blade attempting to imitate the European ones.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hi Jens,

To me, if they are very flexible, it means they were specifically designed for Patas, and are of Indian workmanship.

Marius

PS: Yet, the second one has what might be taken for European engravings... that go well under the armatures... like with Kubur's blade! But for what European (or otherwise) type of sword other than a Pata would such a flexible blade be suitable for?!

PPS: Magnificent and very interesting examples.

Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

I would retract my note earlier that these central fuller blades did not often appear on pata, as it would appear that they did, in the multitude of variations and possibilities with imported blades over such a long time.

The cross and orb mark is of course not a makers mark, but a device used in general motif of European blades, usually enclosing words or phrases etc. but later simply used singly on occasion in symbolic or quality sense.
On Jens' sword, it appears to terminate such an inscriptive panel now covered by the bolster. This corresponds to the period he describes and European.

While widely copied, usually by native artisans, the cross and orb was primarily German and N. European . It was used from 16th-18th c.

Kubur, good note from Staffan's excellent book!!!on the cross and orb, profusely used in many cases of wide range.
Also, excellent observation on p90 of Kinman, this Wirsberg blade has an inscribed panel which has what may be construed as such a floral device, however this 8 leaf example is what is often regarded as a 'paternoster' associated symbol in N. Europe (Netherlands) and on German blades for those markets. The 'crennelations' are compelling, and further suggestion of the kinds of motif from such blades being imitated by native artisans.

In Egerton (1884), numerous examples, mostly pata or other 'long' swords, (#57, 61,62,63) with the blades elaborated as 'very flexible' and European; elastic steel of European workmanship; and European with flexible steel.

Elgood (2004) describes on p,202
" Tory describes in 1612 how the India swords are very sharp but for want of skill in those that temper them, will break rather than bend . "
He notes the demand for European swords, and Shah Jehan preferring 'Alemaine' (German) blades, but these in the north was referring to shamshirs or sabres,

"...long 'FIRANGI' blades became a status symbol in the 17th c. and English swords which bow and become straight again sold at high prices. In the 1660s Thevenot remarks that the swords made by the Indians are very brittle and that good ones are brought from England'.

Here I would note that in a number of these cases, the blades described are notably curved and may refer to wootz shamshir blades, which if not properly produced with the key ore from sources in India containing the mineral impurities required for the nanostructure will indeed be brittle.
British impairment of the wootz industry in the 19th c. case in point.

The demand for imported blades seems quite well supported through the 16t through 19th century, and the 'English' provided blades were more often than not acquired by British merchants from Solingen sources and 'Alemain' not English.

[Jim McDougall]

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

[mariusgmioc]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Many broadsword blades are known to have become well established via Red Sea commerce coming from regions in Oman, and these are very much like these central fuller designs. Most of these are however 19th c. (or often more recent) and occur on the open hilt swords popularly known as 'kattara'.
These are ceremonial swords which are required to have remarkable thinness and most important, flexibility. They are used in traditional performances brandishing these called 'Funun' (often discussed here over several years).

Most of these however are unsuitable as combat blades but they are impressive in appearance. Among many of the other European blades coming into Indian markets, these were likely well suited for S, Indian martial performances with the pata, also khanda, which involve almost 'windmill' like coordinated slashing.

Thank you for the very interesting information! So it may be that the blade is European. It appears the more you dig, the more complex the problem becomes. :

[Jim McDougall]

Well said Marius.
I have been studying these weapons for far more years (decades) than I can really say, and still feel like a novice. I learn more each day, and it seems for every answer there are so many more questions.

Complex is a good word for this fascinating field of conundrums!
The only thing with reasonable consistency is hilts, which generally will hold in some degree to local regions or cultural spheres. Blades however, were transmitted far and wide as a trade commodity, and their movements could be interrupted or entirely rerouted in accord with the constant flux of geopolitical events, warfare, changes in trade agreements etc.

I know I have seen this four petal in square design in other cases in North African weapons, and so far only found notes suggesting the design as far as Tunisia and into Saharan regions. It is hard to say whether it corresponds to something European, but we know that various European marks were duplicated by native workers in Africa often in multiple or repeated forms and other configurations. The familiar 'dukari' (paired crescent moons) are examples of such variations of European marks.

As for these 'floral squares' being placed on an imported European blade in India, it is of course possible, but as far as I have seen, unlikely. As I have said though, that is only my thought at present and quite frankly I hope someone comes up with an example of these exact kind of squares on a European blade, or on another Indian blade, which will confirm otherwise.
For me it is never being right or wrong......just learning!

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marius, it is always good when you are convinced - a good feeling:-) - yes, it is from India, and both blades are thin and very flexible.
So once again we can see, that the weapon smiths did copy the European markings, although the Indian blades were as good, or even better, especially for this kind of weapon.
I will bet a bottle of shampoo - or maybe even a beer - that no one can spot the peacocks on the chiselled gauntlet. Unless, of course, that you have studied the art form the 16th and 17th century - but how many did that - hart in the hand?

A bottle of shampoo!!!????? Forget the beer, get me a Drambuie and I'll bet I will see the peacocks!!

[ariel]

After a bottle of Drambuie I will find the peacocks on a bottle of Heads n' Shoulders!

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:
This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.
Thank you.

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

[Jens Nordlunde]

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I agree that many European, Persian and blades from other places were used in India, and it is mentioned in many old and newer books.
Many Indian weapon smiths were very skilled and made not only good, but very good blades, which the different museums and private collections show.

Back to Kubur's blade. It could be European, but you have not been able to convince me yet, so I will let the case rest till someone comes up with proof of from where the blade origins.

I am pretty sure that for this type of dilemmas we will never have a clear cut answer. In the best case we might get a more likely/probable answer but we can never be sure.

That doesn't meas we should stop trying!

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.

Very interesting "out of the box" perspective! Thank you! Your drawings are quite self-explanatory.

However, I can still see the "flower" symbol and no Maltese cross.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Sorry I dont know where I 'hid' the flower.

[kronckew]

reminds me of the 'flowers' on choora.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=choora

including mine

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Optical illusion

I can see this flower, but is this flower the real motive on the first pata?
I'm not so sure.
First, you can see three squares (or rectangles) on the blade.
The first one - to the left- is almost erased.
The second - and central one - is not very well preserved and only the outlines of the so-called flower are visibles. The eyes of "our Guru" Jim were attracted by this "flower". He is probably the victim of his knowledge because he connected immediately this pattern to his impressive experience.
But the third motive - to the right - and half under the rivet shows a more elaborated and better preserved design, that I tried to reproduce on my drawings. It's clearly a cross.
Human eyes / we focus on what we want to see and it's related to our experience...
Blank or empty spaces can be seen as the main motive but they are not.
I hope that I'll convince you (including our guru).
Best,
Kubur

LOL!!! Kubur, when you first posted your pata, I spent some hours going through notes and trying to formulate a useful assessment on your sword (my post #6). It is unusual as I personally have not seen such a motif, in triple cartouches, on an Indian sword blade.

In your post #9, you note that 'like Jim, I see Maltese crosses', further noting you had trouble believing that 'nobody on this forum could establish origin of this blade!
It seems my observations were not of notable value, and you suggested (your post #14)that African makers certainly were not capable of making good blades.....and that you were hoping for 'other comments'.

I admit that my research on both African and Indian swords only spans several decades, and the last time I researched this particular floral motif was probably 5 or more years ago. I do remember that there were certain occasions when African and Indian influences did appear compellingly connected.

Today you disparagingly have overlooked my insufficient comments and observations from the noted posts, and have 'promoted' (?) me to 'guru?
It is funny that you claim that I am a 'victim of my knowledge' , must admit I have not heard that one before !!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?

So apparently since the earlier posts, I have gone from astute observer with irrelevant observations, to a guru blinded by my experience and knowledge ?

Please understand, this is an interesting discussion on a most interesting sword you have, and my efforts have not been to 'be a guru' or any such nonsense, but trying to help when you insisted on better suggestions than those I offered.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

[Jim McDougall]

Jens,
Thank you so much for the data on the four petal flower Ixora Coccinea which indeed does have remarkable similarity, and very well might suggest Indian application.
The interesting footnote in Elgood is I think #7, which suggests that the 'X' is often used in place of the 'sh' in pronouncing Shiva. The red flower 'vetchi' is sacred to Shiva.
Combined with Wayne's interesting note on flowers on choora, that crenellated design characteristic on these and Khyber knives is a compelling comparison to the inscribed design on this blade within the squares.

This seems strong potential for Indian origin for the blade, as you have suggested, and I would note that contrary to the many references to inferior Indian blades, it seems mostly toward the wootz having infractions. With regularly forged blades, they were of much desired quality and sought after in Arabia, thus probably often entering those trade spheres.

This seems contradictory, but it seems there are many variables, and often European blades were favored, but clearly Indian blades were equally satisfactory.

I hope these further notes might be useful in assisting Kubur with the pata in the OP. It does help to expand the discussion to note these variables.

[Jim McDougall]

Found an example of pata with African blade:
This is just one I found, but as I mentioned I have owned one much like this for any years, and I have seen numbers of them.
The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' which according to Rodd (1928) has triple channels in the center of the broadsword blade. The two outside channels each at the terminus has a small crescent moon termed 'dukari'.
These blades are exclusive to North Africa, and are typically regarded as of Hausa production and found in Saharan (takouba) and many kaskara (Sudanese) swords (Briggs, 1965).

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords. All of these have the large straight flat blades often seen on Pata's and Ferangi's, however uncommon on typical eastern blades.

Previous Pata post http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10945

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

PATA Circa 1700 (18th Century)
Nationality: Southern India Marathas
Overall Length: 129 cm 50 ¾ “
Blade length: 94 cm 37 “
Blade widest point: 4 cm 1 ½ ”
Hilt widest point: Gauntlet 34.6 cm 13 10/16” long 11.5 cm 4 ½ ”wide

This Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. A pair of plain metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Iron gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the dark brown gauntlet is decorated with brass and copper metal-work featuring floral and geometric designs.

General Remarks
The pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The patta consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade.

The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

References:
Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68
Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47
STONE, George Cameron, A GLOSSARY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, DECORATION & USE OF ARMS & ARMOUR IN ALL COUNTRIES AND IN ALL TIMES Pp 484-486

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, Have a look at Elgood (2004), chapter 13, page 129, note 6 - go to page 295 and read note 6 :-).
The Ixora coccinea can now and then be seen on sword and dagger hilts.

I looked at your references, but I can't see any pictures, photos or drawings, that can support your interpretation for the Pata #1.
Please, it doesn't mean that I don't agree with you "in general". I agree, this decoration is common on Indian weapons. And the blade of the Pata #1 can be Indian, I have no problem with that too. I just need material evidences, not a note or an opinion.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The blade is a North African blade known in Saharan regions as 'masri' ..

This is extremely interesting, it could mean that these European blades came from Egypt, maybe via Alexandria...

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The fact that many of these are thus found in Indian swords, usually pata, suggests that somehow, most likely the result of post Omdurman situations, a considerable number of African blades ended up in Southern India.

I think that one of your first post was correct: a lot of fakes were made from the relics of the British colonial empire: Sudan & India... Then of course, Indians imported European trade blades.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

LOL!!!
But surprisingly you are saying because of my predeliction, I only see the flower, yet in post #9, you note that 'like Jim I see Maltese crosses'?
Perhaps I am misunderstanding ???

First, it's good to laugh, a lot of people take it too seriously. I don't.
In fact, I don't care if it's a flower or a cross. I just wrote and drawn that the motive is different from the one that you described. Apparently you didn't notice my comments and drawings (1 point each).
It's about what you see. And i don't agree about your African connexions. But I like your idea of the British colonial links between Sudan and India. In general, Jim, you stay my main source of inspiration on this forum!
Indian or European blade, I'll take it, but I need evidences...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

Pata's are one of my favourite Indian weapons. However, when it comes to the blades they where often battle field pick ups recycled hence usually 17th Century or earlier. Given there length potentially started life as European Riding swords, hand and a half or even two handed swords.

We have four Pata's in our collection and all appear to have European blades. European blades from the 17th Century or earlier are also extremely flexible and whilst some Pata blades may feature eastern designs these could simply have been added latter and may not have been original to the blade when forged.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hello Cathey and Rex,

Thank you very much for the photos and info you provided!

I found rather confusing you mentioning that 17 century or earlier European sword were very flexible.

From all that I know European swords were exactly the contrary. They were very stiff and heavy as they were designed to deliver powerful blows against heavily armoured oponents. Powerful blows that were not necessarily supposed to cause any cuts but to shatter bones and throw opponents out of balance. Practically none of the European swords I know (and I handled quite a few) had blades flexible enough to be suitable for Patas.

Second, the citation you give from Rawson is very misleading at least.

Patas may have been effective weapons in certain circumstances but they are extremely ineffective in others. For example, Patas are effective fighting multiple enemies wearing no armour in relatively wide open spaces but are very ineffective in crammed battles or against armoured opponents. Moreover, Patas are effective at delivering slashing/whipping blows, but are definitely not effective at thrusting/stabbing as their greater flexibility and length will make them easily bend if they encounter the slightest resistance like chainmail or even bone. Also the whole arm grip, makes the Pata very unsuitable for close combat in crammed spaces because of difficulties in handling the blade.

So, I believe Rawson got his information from anecdotal sources that cannot stand thorough scrutiny, and this would be a good example where flawed information has become to be considered as reference.

It would be interesting to see what others have to say about this subject.

Regards,

Marius

[Jens Nordlunde]

Marius,
I am with you. In another thread long ago it was suggested that the pata could be used as a lance. No it cant. The blade is far too flexible, and should you stab a man with a pata, you are likely to break your arm/shoulder or get the arm ripped off, as you can not let go of a pata as easily as you can with a tulwar.

Jim,
In the article Robert writes in Sultans of the South (pp. 218-233), he discusses the Indian and the European blades, and he ends the article by writing: "The Nomerous weapons of the Deccan reflect this diversity, and it remains difficult at attribute arms to a spacific court or to determine with certainty the origin of many of the firangi blades that are mounted on Indian gilts."
Francois Bernier who stayed in India from 1656 to 1668 writes: "...some Indian craftsmen can imitate European blades that the difference between the original and the copy can hardly be discerned." This quote is also from Robert's article.

Kubur.
You are right that Robert does not show the flower, so I did Google the name, here it is.

[fernando]

I bet you guys are familiar with Elgood's work "Swords in the Deccan in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Cenmturies: Their Manufacture and Influence of European Imports."
I know this is a recurrent approach, but ...
Among the various interesting passages, i would venture this one to be of some opportunity here:

.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Fernando :-),
Your quote is, of course, from Sultans of the South - goes without saying :-).
Did you also read where it says, that the swords from EAC can not be sold in India, as the quality is too low????
You can find quotes matching most arguments - so why argue, as non of us lived then, and our knowledge comes from books written by someone living, and travelling in India at the time.
We do know, however, from several collections that Indian sword smiths did make both genuine Indian, as well as copies of European blade, of a very high quality.
We now discuss the high quality of the European blades, but I am sure that you will be able to find blades made in Germany of a lower/low quality than the ones from Solingen, and the same goes for the other blade exporting countries.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Addendum:

The Tuareg takouba from the Saharan regions of Aguelhog in Adrar n Ifoghas with brass hilt plates seen here is seen in Dr. Lloyd Cabot Briggs "European Blades in Tuareg Swords and Daggers" (JAAS, Vol. V, #2, 1965, pp.37-92).
Note the distinct petaled floral in squares on the guard.....remarkably like the triple square cartouches on the pata blade in OP.

This particular takouba is with a blade which is inscribed with the 'Spanish Motto' (partially illustrated by Briggs), and is of a type of blade made in Solingen for Spain to export to its North American colonies in the 18th c,
It is noted that these 'motto blades' (one was same motto but in French) were also seen on a number of other Saharan blades.

These blades, while predominantly exported to New Spain 1760s to early 1800s, ended up profusely represented throughout the Spanish colonies, and no doubt entered trade routes heading eastward from Moroccan Spanish regions.

Briggs describes these European blades, as seen on this brass hilt takouba from the Sahara, as THIN, MODERATELY FLEXIBLE. It is European, from Solingen. The markings are remarkably like those on the pata blade.

While these German blades were headed westward, there are numbers of ways they, and the influences of apparent European markings could have been diffused into Red Sea, Arab and thus Indian trade spheres. We are already aware of the predominance of German blades in Indian context (Alemain=German).

This is what I meant by this type of cross/petaled flower in pata #1 here ,
and the dagger shown is a telek (Saharan arm dagger)....note the use of X type markings, which was well known in Tuareg arts.


Jens, can you note what page in Elgood that flower is shown, I keep going through it and cannot find it. Thank you.

Salaams Jim , Your examples on sword and dagger are almost identical to the designs on the Patta. It occurred to me that both Indian and European blades were used in this weapon and either African / European trade blades or home grown African or straight forward export to India European blades could easily have been produced... In this case certainly carrying African motifs...for sure.
I note that these weapons could be deployed one in each hand and the flexibility was reasonable ~ I assume if used in a cyclic action the slash and cut potential of these blades would be substantial although one could be used in unison with an axe or other weapon and later a combination pistol and Patta was invented.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Jens and Fernando,

My issue is not so much related to the quality of the blades as high quality blades were manufactured both in Europe and in India, but more with the TYPE of blades manufactured.

My point is that the Pata requires a very specific type of blade, long, wide and very, very elastic that is incompatible with any type of European or otherwise sword I know.

Now Jim has mentioned the Kattara (sounds like a type of Katar ), but I am not familiar with this type of sword and I am planning to research more about it. However, there might be the possibility those swords use imported Indian blades, rather than the other way around.

In my line of logic, I believe that since the Pata blades were that peculiar and specific, it would be most logical they were manufactured locally, even if some of them were adorned with European-like decorations and markings. In other words, I find hard to concieve that European swordsmiths were producing this type of very special blades specifically for export to India.

Yes, there are some, maybe many, examples with Patas fitted with European rigid blades, but those Patas would have been extremely difficult, impractical and ineffective as weapons.