Introduction

Shamsy · 12th June 2016, 01:24 AM

Good morning all,

I was recommended to join this forum as I am just starting out my collection of African weaponry and shields.

A little about myself. I live in Australia where the laws pertaining to weapon collecting have not as yet been over politicised. As such, I am lucky enough to be able to pursue my interests relatively unhindered. I've always loved weaponry and military history from the youngest age and the fundamental role it has played in human history. A sad reflect on humanity, but most of the most important historical milestones have been conflicts.

I've been collecting militaria for years, specifically Japanese Swords and further narrowing this down to NCO swords. I also collected odd items that caught my eye. Japanese Swords are both very expensive and relatively homogeneous so that probably explains the oddities.

As well as the militaria, I have a collection of African masks that I've added to over the last decade and a half. I love the art and stark contrast to European culture. So in the browsing that sometimes leads to an oddity purchase, I found a buckler made from elephant hide which I knew had to take a place on the wall! Staring at that each day and seeing a Deadliest Warrior episode based on Africa made me curious so I started to look at African weaponry. It's so varied, so outlandish! I'm captivated and this is definitely going to be my side collection.

Would more knowledgeable members please recommend some books or sites where I may do further research?
I'm leaning towards Sudan right now as I love the kaskara swords. Definitely going to get one of those once I do a little more learning. Is it worth specialising or is it better to aim for African in general?
What are some of the pitfalls of the market? Many reproduction items?
How do you best care for the leathers and skins many of the items contain without damaging them?
Odd tips, hints, suggestions welcome.

I hope to learn a lot here and maybe even contribute something back in time. Once the books arrive I'll at least have some basic knowledge. Nice to meet you all!

Angus1783 · 12th June 2016, 05:20 AM

Hello I as well am a new member and have had some of the same questions that you pose, My african items consist of a pair of spears that at some point in time I will post, and a lone Dan mask, the question of is the market saturated with fake,repos etc, YES it is and when I started collecting these sorts of items it was in 1984 and there seemed at that time to be a nice selection af african items at the larger gun shows in the states ( my father was a weapons dealer) so I was along for the ride !! I supppose at that time it was all relative to your budget as it is now, so I also started collecting Nco swords and at that time they could be found for around 100 US and on occasion even less, I think that the link here will also help answer in greater
detail what I wish I could convay to you so eloquently http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/guide.html.
Cheers A.

kahnjar1 · 12th June 2016, 06:57 AM

Hi Shamsy and welcome to the Forum. Collecting as you have alluded to can be full of pitfalls but it is by these that we learn....hopefully at not too much cost financially due to "mistakes".
I am interested at your comment that you have and "Elephant Hide Buckler". Any chance of a pic attached to your next post?
The areas of your interest are well covered on the Forum and if you use the SEARCH function I am sure that you will find a wealth of information.
I have attached a pic of the buckler I have, which is Omani but probably actually comes from Zanzibar. There is a post covering these particular Bucklers if you SEARCH Omani Buckler you will find it.
Once again, Welcome
Stu

Gavin Nugent · 12th June 2016, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamsy

Good morning all,

I was recommended to join this forum as I am just starting out my collection of African weaponry and shields.

A little about myself. I live in Australia where the laws pertaining to weapon collecting have not as yet been over politicised. As such, I am lucky enough to be able to pursue my interests relatively unhindered. I've always loved weaponry and military history from the youngest age and the fundamental role it has played in human history. A sad reflect on humanity, but most of the most important historical milestones have been conflicts.

I've been collecting militaria for years, specifically Japanese Swords and further narrowing this down to NCO swords. I also collected odd items that caught my eye. Japanese Swords are both very expensive and relatively homogeneous so that probably explains the oddities.

As well as the militaria, I have a collection of African masks that I've added to over the last decade and a half. I love the art and stark contrast to European culture. So in the browsing that sometimes leads to an oddity purchase, I found a buckler made from elephant hide which I knew had to take a place on the wall! Staring at that each day and seeing a Deadliest Warrior episode based on Africa made me curious so I started to look at African weaponry. It's so varied, so outlandish! I'm captivated and this is definitely going to be my side collection.

Would more knowledgeable members please recommend some books or sites where I may do further research?
I'm leaning towards Sudan right now as I love the kaskara swords. Definitely going to get one of those once I do a little more learning. Is it worth specialising or is it better to aim for African in general?
What are some of the pitfalls of the market? Many reproduction items?
How do you best care for the leathers and skins many of the items contain without damaging them?
Odd tips, hints, suggestions welcome.

I hope to learn a lot here and maybe even contribute something back in time. Once the books arrive I'll at least have some basic knowledge. Nice to meet you all!

Welcome to the forum Shamsy.

Your own personal approach which you have adopted in the past is a perfect approach to continue with, collect what you like. There are valid reasons for remaining focused, this can be seen in many facets of the collecting world, don't be formed by others opinions about whether you should remained focused on a small area or collect from a greater area, this would be an injustice to yourself, follow your heart, instinct and head, but of course, seek advise if you need to.

The forum, past and present will answer a lot of your questions, continue to search you answers to your questions within these pages and you will surely be enlightened. There are many seasoned African collectors here with vast collections who can offer titles for reading or reference.

Enjoy your stay

Gavin

VANDOO · 12th June 2016, 08:10 AM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM.

AFRICA AND INDIA PROBABLY HAVE THE MOST VARIATIONS OF EDGED WEAPONS OF ALL THE COUNTRIES. MANY OF WHICH DON'T FOLLOW THE BASIC BEST FUNCTIONAL FORMS FOR KNIVES AND SWORDS. THAT MAKES THE FIELD PARTICULARLY INTERESTING AND VARIED. A GOOD PLACE TO START IN BOOKS IS "STONES GLOSSARY " IT COVERS THE LARGEST RANGE OF OF ETHNOGRAPHIC WEAPONS AND IS FUN TO READ. THERE ARE OTHER BOOKS MORE SPECIFIC TO CERTAIN TYPES AND AREAS WITH BETTER AND MORE COMPLETE INFORMATION TO GET LATER. I THINK THERE IS A OLD POST IN THE ARCHIVES LISTING GOOD REFERENCE BOOKS IF NOT THERE SHOULD BE.
AS TO AFRICAN SWORDS STILL BEING MADE OR OLD BLADES WITH NEW LESS TRADITIONAL HANDLES YES THEY ARE OUT THERE. THE THING TO DO IS LEARN WHAT TO EXPECT OF QUALITY AFRICAN WORK VERSUS SHODDY NON-TRADITIONAL WORK. AS WITH JAPANESE WEAPONS IT TAKES TIME TO LEARN BUT FROM COLLECTING JAPANESE YOU WILL RECOGNIZE QUALITY WORK YOU JUST NEED TO SEE AND HANDLE SOME GOOD AND SOME BAD AFRICAN ITEMS AND SOON YOU WILL BE UP TO SPEED. KNOWLEGE OF AFRICAN MASKS ALSO HELPS DETERMINE TRADITIONAL VS SHODDY NON-TRADITIONAL ITEMS. GOOD LUCK.

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2016, 11:38 AM

I think this is one the best books on African weapons without venturing into more publications on regional art that include weaponry. Manfred A. Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Panga Na Visu.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...=panga+na+visu

I am very keen on African weapons. I used to collect them and still have a few. There are fakes but with a bit of experience they are rather obvious. I think it still possible to get very good pieces at reasonable prices but very nice pieces especially Congo and throwing knives can command high prices, but pace yourself as although costly some weapon forms can be extremely common and you may not get much in the way of resale.

BANDOOK · 12th June 2016, 01:37 PM

HELLO SHAMSY
GREETINGS FROM ACROSS THE DITCH,ME AND Kahnjar1 ARE IN NEW ZEALAND ,SO GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE AND HAPPY COLLECTING AND AM SURE YOU WILL LEARN A LOT FOM KNOWLEDGEBLE MEMBERS HERE
REGARDS
RAJESH ALVA

Shamsy · 13th June 2016, 03:00 AM

Thank you all so much for the advice and warm welcome! I've already learned a few things from my brief foray into the archives. I think I will keep my focus open since I was first drawn to African arms as armour because of the variety and the fact I just liked some of the pieces. Good advice!

Kahnjar, I've attempted to add a picture of my shield for you. It's quite different, though I saw one exactly as you described for sale recently in a small antique shop. It was rhino hide, in fantastic condition. At least they don't fake those! I'd like to buy it actually, but they were after about... $1,000 US equivalent which is a lot of money. Not tech savvy, and I can't see my post as I'm on probation, but here goes...

kahnjar1 · 13th June 2016, 06:27 AM

Thanks for the pic. Not sure what the origin of your shield is. Someone no doubt will know and reply in due course. As for the Omani one in your antique shop I suggest it will be there for quite sometime. As we are not supposed to discus values here I will not comment further but you get the idea I expect.
Stu

Shamsy · 13th June 2016, 08:51 AM

Thank you Stu, I hear you loud and clear. I'll be doing a lot more research before I go spending more than a few dollars. Books are always the best investment and best return.

As to the shields origin, the only information I have is that provided by the seller. Sudanese, somewhere in 1800s. I am quite certain I have it hanging the wrong way to, but have yet to correct this.

Martin Lubojacky · 13th June 2016, 10:20 AM

Hi Shamsy and welcome to the forum (it seems like yesterday when I also came up here ...).
To your questions: There are many interesting books on African weapons which I never had in my hands, nevertheles from those I have I would recommend also other books by late Mr Zirngibl - (Afrikanische Waffen, Rare African Short weapons, African Shields), also my favourite book by Christopher Spring - African Arms and Armour.

Collecting African arms is exciting - you will learn to recognize fakes when you see (in natura) enough originals. I think old African weapons and shields is a world of lost technologies and techniques (especially in the case of shields). From this reason it is not easy to make "authentic" copy. It is much more easier to copy masks and statues. I think another reason is various materials used for onr thing - iron, brass, wood, leather...
So good luck !
Martin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th June 2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamsy

Thank you all so much for the advice and warm welcome! I've already learned a few things from my brief foray into the archives. I think I will keep my focus open since I was first drawn to African arms as armour because of the variety and the fact I just liked some of the pieces. Good advice!

Kahnjar, I've attempted to add a picture of my shield for you. It's quite different, though I saw one exactly as you described for sale recently in a small antique shop. It was rhino hide, in fantastic condition. At least they don't fake those! I'd like to buy it actually, but they were after about... $1,000 US equivalent which is a lot of money. Not tech savvy, and I can't see my post as I'm on probation, but here goes...

Your shield appears to be Indian. Here's another sold on an auction site but they say ~ Quote"A highly rare and desirable Indian large shield (18th or 19th century), made of hide. These don't come up for sale very often. This example is a bit warped, but retains most of its original domed form. The black hide - perhaps buffalo - retains a nice black surface colour and texture. The original handle straps are still intact. All four grip bosses are still solid and secure (these often fall off with age and abuse). Each of the metal fitting on the surface is intricately decorated (see photos), but it has been covered with some kind of varnish which is obscuring this decoration - this should be carefully cleaned off with a chemical remover, but I have left as found. A real gem - large ones like this (26 inches or thereabouts) are really hard to find in the UK, especially in this condition."Unquote.

Shamsy · 14th June 2016, 05:29 AM

That's a great find, thank you Ibrahiim! Rather far off what I was told buying it, but who knows with these things where the dating and location started and if that person was well studied or not. It does bear a striking resemblance, though the warping is not as bad, not to mention matching bosses. I'll start calling it my Indian shield! Since I bought it because I liked it I'm not at all bothered to find out it's probably something other than I though. It could have been a trade item I suppose and ended up in Sudan.

Very glad to have an answer, thank you!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 14th June 2016, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shamsy

That's a great find, thank you Ibrahiim! Rather far off what I was told buying it, but who knows with these things where the dating and location started and if that person was well studied or not. It does bear a striking resemblance, though the warping is not as bad, not to mention matching bosses. I'll start calling it my Indian shield! Since I bought it because I liked it I'm not at all bothered to find out it's probably something other than I though. It could have been a trade item I suppose and ended up in Sudan.

Very glad to have an answer, thank you!

Thank you ~ Heres the link http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/antiqu...s-uk/for-sale/
See also http://www.victorianmilitarysociety....e-19th-century Quote" Trophies taken at the battle of Tofrek in 1885, included arms from India - a tulwar sword with dual point and serrated cutting edge and an all steel circular shield (dhal)."Unquote.

Shamsy · 15th June 2016, 10:20 AM

So it is not inconceivable that the seller of the shield could have been correct about it's origins. That's interesting to learn. I enjoyed reading about the huge variety of arms they found, really puts into perspective how individual each warrior was. Very different to the rank and file of other nations. The great variety is what drew me to want to collect African arms and learning that this may even in cue assimilated arms from other cultures is fantastic! Thanks again.

12th June 2016, 01:24 AM	#1
Shamsy Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Australia Posts: 12	Introduction Good morning all, I was recommended to join this forum as I am just starting out my collection of African weaponry and shields. A little about myself. I live in Australia where the laws pertaining to weapon collecting have not as yet been over politicised. As such, I am lucky enough to be able to pursue my interests relatively unhindered. I've always loved weaponry and military history from the youngest age and the fundamental role it has played in human history. A sad reflect on humanity, but most of the most important historical milestones have been conflicts. I've been collecting militaria for years, specifically Japanese Swords and further narrowing this down to NCO swords. I also collected odd items that caught my eye. Japanese Swords are both very expensive and relatively homogeneous so that probably explains the oddities. As well as the militaria, I have a collection of African masks that I've added to over the last decade and a half. I love the art and stark contrast to European culture. So in the browsing that sometimes leads to an oddity purchase, I found a buckler made from elephant hide which I knew had to take a place on the wall! Staring at that each day and seeing a Deadliest Warrior episode based on Africa made me curious so I started to look at African weaponry. It's so varied, so outlandish! I'm captivated and this is definitely going to be my side collection. Would more knowledgeable members please recommend some books or sites where I may do further research? I'm leaning towards Sudan right now as I love the kaskara swords. Definitely going to get one of those once I do a little more learning. Is it worth specialising or is it better to aim for African in general? What are some of the pitfalls of the market? Many reproduction items? How do you best care for the leathers and skins many of the items contain without damaging them? Odd tips, hints, suggestions welcome. I hope to learn a lot here and maybe even contribute something back in time. Once the books arrive I'll at least have some basic knowledge. Nice to meet you all!

12th June 2016, 05:20 AM	#2
Angus1783 Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 14	African items Hello I as well am a new member and have had some of the same questions that you pose, My african items consist of a pair of spears that at some point in time I will post, and a lone Dan mask, the question of is the market saturated with fake,repos etc, YES it is and when I started collecting these sorts of items it was in 1984 and there seemed at that time to be a nice selection af african items at the larger gun shows in the states ( my father was a weapons dealer) so I was along for the ride !! I supppose at that time it was all relative to your budget as it is now, so I also started collecting Nco swords and at that time they could be found for around 100 US and on occasion even less, I think that the link here will also help answer in greater detail what I wish I could convay to you so eloquently http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/guide.html. Cheers A.

12th June 2016, 06:57 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Welcome Hi Shamsy and welcome to the Forum. Collecting as you have alluded to can be full of pitfalls but it is by these that we learn....hopefully at not too much cost financially due to "mistakes". I am interested at your comment that you have and "Elephant Hide Buckler". Any chance of a pic attached to your next post? The areas of your interest are well covered on the Forum and if you use the SEARCH function I am sure that you will find a wealth of information. I have attached a pic of the buckler I have, which is Omani but probably actually comes from Zanzibar. There is a post covering these particular Bucklers if you SEARCH Omani Buckler you will find it. Once again, Welcome Stu Attached Images

12th June 2016, 11:38 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think this is one the best books on African weapons without venturing into more publications on regional art that include weaponry. Manfred A. Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Panga Na Visu. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...=panga+na+visu I am very keen on African weapons. I used to collect them and still have a few. There are fakes but with a bit of experience they are rather obvious. I think it still possible to get very good pieces at reasonable prices but very nice pieces especially Congo and throwing knives can command high prices, but pace yourself as although costly some weapon forms can be extremely common and you may not get much in the way of resale. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th June 2016 at 11:49 AM.

12th June 2016, 01:37 PM	#7
BANDOOK Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND Posts: 624	WELCOME ABORD HELLO SHAMSY GREETINGS FROM ACROSS THE DITCH,ME AND Kahnjar1 ARE IN NEW ZEALAND ,SO GOOD TO SEE YOU HERE AND HAPPY COLLECTING AND AM SURE YOU WILL LEARN A LOT FOM KNOWLEDGEBLE MEMBERS HERE REGARDS RAJESH ALVA

12th June 2016, 08:10 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM. AFRICA AND INDIA PROBABLY HAVE THE MOST VARIATIONS OF EDGED WEAPONS OF ALL THE COUNTRIES. MANY OF WHICH DON'T FOLLOW THE BASIC BEST FUNCTIONAL FORMS FOR KNIVES AND SWORDS. THAT MAKES THE FIELD PARTICULARLY INTERESTING AND VARIED. A GOOD PLACE TO START IN BOOKS IS "STONES GLOSSARY " IT COVERS THE LARGEST RANGE OF OF ETHNOGRAPHIC WEAPONS AND IS FUN TO READ. THERE ARE OTHER BOOKS MORE SPECIFIC TO CERTAIN TYPES AND AREAS WITH BETTER AND MORE COMPLETE INFORMATION TO GET LATER. I THINK THERE IS A OLD POST IN THE ARCHIVES LISTING GOOD REFERENCE BOOKS IF NOT THERE SHOULD BE. AS TO AFRICAN SWORDS STILL BEING MADE OR OLD BLADES WITH NEW LESS TRADITIONAL HANDLES YES THEY ARE OUT THERE. THE THING TO DO IS LEARN WHAT TO EXPECT OF QUALITY AFRICAN WORK VERSUS SHODDY NON-TRADITIONAL WORK. AS WITH JAPANESE WEAPONS IT TAKES TIME TO LEARN BUT FROM COLLECTING JAPANESE YOU WILL RECOGNIZE QUALITY WORK YOU JUST NEED TO SEE AND HANDLE SOME GOOD AND SOME BAD AFRICAN ITEMS AND SOON YOU WILL BE UP TO SPEED. KNOWLEGE OF AFRICAN MASKS ALSO HELPS DETERMINE TRADITIONAL VS SHODDY NON-TRADITIONAL ITEMS. GOOD LUCK.

13th June 2016, 03:00 AM	#8
Shamsy Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Australia Posts: 12	Thank you all so much for the advice and warm welcome! I've already learned a few things from my brief foray into the archives. I think I will keep my focus open since I was first drawn to African arms as armour because of the variety and the fact I just liked some of the pieces. Good advice! Kahnjar, I've attempted to add a picture of my shield for you. It's quite different, though I saw one exactly as you described for sale recently in a small antique shop. It was rhino hide, in fantastic condition. At least they don't fake those! I'd like to buy it actually, but they were after about... $1,000 US equivalent which is a lot of money. Not tech savvy, and I can't see my post as I'm on probation, but here goes... Attached Images

13th June 2016, 06:27 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Thanks for the pic. Not sure what the origin of your shield is. Someone no doubt will know and reply in due course. As for the Omani one in your antique shop I suggest it will be there for quite sometime. As we are not supposed to discus values here I will not comment further but you get the idea I expect. Stu

13th June 2016, 08:51 AM	#10
Shamsy Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Australia Posts: 12	Thank you Stu, I hear you loud and clear. I'll be doing a lot more research before I go spending more than a few dollars. Books are always the best investment and best return. As to the shields origin, the only information I have is that provided by the seller. Sudanese, somewhere in 1800s. I am quite certain I have it hanging the wrong way to, but have yet to correct this.

13th June 2016, 10:20 AM	#11
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Shamsy and welcome to the forum (it seems like yesterday when I also came up here ...). To your questions: There are many interesting books on African weapons which I never had in my hands, nevertheles from those I have I would recommend also other books by late Mr Zirngibl - (Afrikanische Waffen, Rare African Short weapons, African Shields), also my favourite book by Christopher Spring - African Arms and Armour. Collecting African arms is exciting - you will learn to recognize fakes when you see (in natura) enough originals. I think old African weapons and shields is a world of lost technologies and techniques (especially in the case of shields). From this reason it is not easy to make "authentic" copy. It is much more easier to copy masks and statues. I think another reason is various materials used for onr thing - iron, brass, wood, leather... So good luck ! Martin

14th June 2016, 05:29 AM	#13
Shamsy Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Australia Posts: 12	That's a great find, thank you Ibrahiim! Rather far off what I was told buying it, but who knows with these things where the dating and location started and if that person was well studied or not. It does bear a striking resemblance, though the warping is not as bad, not to mention matching bosses. I'll start calling it my Indian shield! Since I bought it because I liked it I'm not at all bothered to find out it's probably something other than I though. It could have been a trade item I suppose and ended up in Sudan. Very glad to have an answer, thank you!

15th June 2016, 10:20 AM	#15
Shamsy Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Australia Posts: 12	So it is not inconceivable that the seller of the shield could have been correct about it's origins. That's interesting to learn. I enjoyed reading about the huge variety of arms they found, really puts into perspective how individual each warrior was. Very different to the rank and file of other nations. The great variety is what drew me to want to collect African arms and learning that this may even in cue assimilated arms from other cultures is fantastic! Thanks again.