A Large Spanish Cup Hilt

[CSinTX]

I recently added this piece to my collection. The cup is in damaged condition but it would be way above my pay grade if it were in perfect shape. It's still quite impressive either way. Excellent workmanship! Blade inscription reads- "Acomete Quien Quiera" "El Fuerte Espera". Large cup with large heavy quillons. It measures 125cm.

As always, any and all thoughts are appreciated.

[fernando]

Outstanding find, CSinTX.
A very impressive and rather lengthy example.
I wish i had one of these .
17th century, i wold guess. The inscription is very Castillian; this would be a Toledo sword.

[cornelistromp]

@ Fernando, yes you are right in "Diccionario de la lengua castellana"

is written Acomete Quien Quiera , El Fuerte Espera =en que se advierte que es mas valor esperar con serenidad peligro , que acometer


my Spanish is not so good, this is an understatement and correct me if I'm wrong, I think it means something like;


that It warns/says that it is more valuable to wait calmly and that is dangerous to rush.

very nice cup hilt rapier btw.

best,
Jasper

[ulfberth]

Casey,

congratulations with this fine pierced cup hilt rapier !

Acometa quien quiera, el fuerte espera is a proverb written by César Oudin in 1609.

https://resdiachronicae.files.wordpr...pablo_luis.pdf

Proverbe en espagnol : « Acometa quien quiera, el fuerte espera. »
Traduction française : « Attaque qui voudra, le brave l'attendra. »

So free translated it means , Attack whoever wants, the brave are waiting !

I can only imagine what the owner must have felt holding this rapier in his hands while these lyrics went trough his mind ...

Kind Regards

Ulfberth

[fernando]

You are closest from it, Jasper.
A strict translation (through portuguese) would be:
Whoever it is may atack but ... the strong (brave) waits.
The interpretation being: it is foolish to atack; better calmly wait.

[fernando]

Casey, have you lurked inside the guard, both sides of the ricasso; to check whether there are any smiths marks ?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Casey,

congratulations with this fine pierced cup hilt rapier !

Acometa quien quiera, el fuerte espera is a proverb written by César Oudin in 1609.

https://resdiachronicae.files.wordpr...pablo_luis.pdf

Proverbe en espagnol : « Acometa quien quiera, el fuerte espera. »
Traduction française : « Attaque qui voudra, le brave l'attendra. »

So free translated it means , Attack whoever wants, the brave are waiting !

I can only imagine what the owner must have felt holding this rapier in his hands while these lyrics went trough his mind ...

Kind Regards

Ulfberth

Outstanding entry noting the source for this quote and the translation!!
What a beautiful cup hilt!
Thank you for adding that on the translation Ulfberth

[ulfberth]

Thanks Jim !

This cup hilt has it all, beautifully chiseled guard and pommel, finely pierced cup and an inspiring proverb on the blade.
What also intrigues me is the shell shape ends on the pas dane, this is a design I have seen on 16th pommels.
Can this design perhaps be related to a certain area or origin ?

kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

That is a very good point Ulfberth, and these striated shells are a feature I have always associated with hilt features on Spanish examples. These are in my opinion keenly associated with the scallop shell, the symbol most used representing St James of Compostela. This is turn seems to be very much aligned with Spanish and Portuguese military orders, and likely in other related items of material culture.
This same striated shell is often as extended in counter guards, and on various edged weapon motif.
Interestingly I originally noticed this feature in research on Spanish colonial espada anchas of the 18th to early 19th . in the shell over the forte from the guard. This seems to have been prevalent through the 18th but I found the feature of course did reach much farther back as noted, but seemingly confined to Spanish items or provincially related examples.

One cannot resist the fascinating lore and history that surround these magnificent cuphilts, the mystery of the Spanish fencing technique, Destreza, and it is easy to see why the Spaniards resisted giving up these traditions for so long.

[ulfberth]

So its the same symbol that Fernando recognised on the sail guard dagger Casey has.
Here is an example of a 16th c sword with a scallop shell type pommel and a rapier that has the shell decorations all over its guard, Poldo Pezolli museum Milan
Notice that the rapier has the same typy of quillion block with thick side walls to hold the blade firm.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[Jim McDougall]

Ulfberth, thank you for these additional examples!
It does seem that Milan was distinctly part of the Spanish provincial regions under the Habsburgs until the beginning of the 18th c. This is in my view one of the things which often makes regional or national identification of many rapiers so challenging. While the cuphilt was of course mostly associated with Spain and Portugal, many were indeed Italian.
Therefore the scallop shell device in motif seems of course represented on many weapons accordingly.

[ulfberth]

Of course Jim, the origin or the place were a certain style or fashion emerged would in time be further dispersed to other countries.
The sword makers of the period must have inspired and influenced each other as Toledo inspired Solingen etc etc

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[CSinTX]

Thank you everyone for all of the information!

Fernando, I looked closely and could not find any smith marks that are exposed. It did remind me though, that I forgot to take photos of the "anchors" located just forward of the fullers. I know these are common but could someone remind us if they have a certain significance or if just simply decoration?

[cornelistromp]

Hi,

unfortunately the anchor is not a mark but was used by the blade smith as an orientation point to indicate the end of the fuller, and of course also has a decorative function.Sometimes the shape gives some more information about the origin, in this case the double anchormark looks a spltted cross which could imply an Italian origin.however this is purely speculation.

best,
Jasper

[RobertGuy]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

That is a very good point Ulfberth, and these striated shells are a feature I have always associated with hilt features on Spanish examples. These are in my opinion keenly associated with the scallop shell, the symbol most used representing St James of Compostela.....

Jim
I was interested to see this and your comments on another thread about a shell hilted hanger.Here is a similar feature in the hilt of what I believe to be a 1728 Spanish Cavalry Officer's sword.

[fernando]

Probably some of us realize that the vieira shell was a symbol created as such by Apostle Tiago himself, but in fact it adopted later by the Church as a ‘certificate’ for those who undertook the pilgrimage to Compostela.
This shell is depicted by Botticelli in his work Birth of Venus (1484-6). It was used in pagan cults as a symbol of fertility and was connected to Goddess Venus. In early times she was the protector of the sea, navigators and fishermen. She was venerated upon a shell by the Druids that crossed the Compostela route to go practice their ascesticims at the Finisterra, extreme of the Galician shore, known at the period in the European Continent where, according to pagan belief, sage survivors of a flood came ashore in such place, there leaving their spiritual energies. In the belief that the sea is the origin of life and having the Goddess of a love so carnal as spiritual, come out of a shell, this became to represent fertility. In the middle ages pagan cults were abolished, being represented by other forms by Christian cult. Obviously the Church wanted somehow to connect the shell symbol to any act or cult, a Christian image. Pilgrimage of Christian believers to the Apostle Tiago, rendering to the sea all that they had and taking the vieira shell as proof that they managed to conclude the route, the Church ‘stole’ this symbol and declared it as a symbol of the pilgrim and devotee of Santiago de Compostela. Above all, the vieira shell represents origin of life and fertility: the route, the protection and, after concluding the route, should proceed to Finisterra and throw it to the sea, because knowledge belongs to everyone and as a form of thanking for having realized the route in safety. It is a form of disposing of the knowledge acquired during the pilgrimage.
It is only natural that the vieira shell can be seen in other than weapons. We can see the Casa das Conchas (House of Shells) in Salamanca, a magnificent building of the XV-XVI centuries, which was property of Don Rodrigo Maldonado from Talavera, a knight of the Order of Santiago, whose coat of arms contained a shell.
Also in Portugal this symbol was appreciated, eventualy a favorite of King Dom João V (1706-1750) as seen, for one, in firearms trigger guards of the period.

.

[ulfberth]

Great historical information and documentation Fernando !
With all the info we have seen so far, would you say this is most probably a Toledo cup hilt rapier or are the chances of it being Italian just as plausible ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

... With all the info we have seen so far, would you say this is most probably a Toledo cup hilt rapier or are the chances of it being Italian just as plausible ?

I do not have the capacity to judge that, once the elementary leads are missing. In a wide interpretation, the design of the fixation claws might just be a decoration ability and not a deliberate shell symbol.
It appears (to me) that Italians had a more extensive work on such elaborated cup bowls but, on the contrary, the various swords of this type in the Wallace Colection are mostly Spanish, namely from Toledo, sometimes with Solingen blades.
On the other hand, considering that this example is Spanish due to its well spelt blade inscription, you face a contradiction as, Spanish smiths who made such fine swords, had a name and or a mark to engrave on the blade, either in the forte or in the ricasso.
So ...

[ulfberth]

so ... perhaps its Italian, there are several rapiers in the Poldo Pezolli museum that have no makers mark on the ricasso either including the one with the scallop shells decoration, however I would not rule out Spanish either....

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Jim
I was interested to see this and your comments on another thread about a shell hilted hanger.Here is a similar feature in the hilt of what I believe to be a 1728 Spanish Cavalry Officer's sword.

Thank you for your note Robert, and good observation on this feature on this Spanish cavalry sword in which this appears to be a guardopolvo but inside the hilt of an arming sword in rapier form . These 'patterns' as in this one regarded as 1728 were actually often loosely applied as usually that was the date of formal notice of the form, often already in use for a period of time.
It would be hard to say whether any symbolic importance might have been intended in this case or if simply an aesthetic mindful of the striations in so many of these hilt features with the shells. While the shell clearly has significant historical importance, in many cases it very well may have been used as a favored design which lent to pleasing character in the motif.

Regarding the 'anchor' often seen on blades, these indeed were typically placed at the terminus of fullers or enclosing inscriptions, but it is equally unclear in many cases whether simply an aesthetic flourish or whether there were deeper symbolisms imbued. The anchor itself was an early Christian symbol and associated in many cases with the cross. It is interesting to examine the ways these 'anchors' are often embellished and the variations in the numbers of cross bars etc. These seem to have certain similarities to various sigils and devices in other esoteric contexts.

All things to consider, but what makes the mysteries these weapons often hold so interesting