Keris

[GrozaB]

Picked up yesterday my first Keris. It looks nice, has carved elephant ivory grip and one of the ugliest blades I ever saw This is not my cup of tea, so I know pretty much nothing about it... Can someone tell me who/when made it? Looking on the ivory I think it is early 20th century, but I can be wrong...

[Sajen]

Hello GrozaB,

I think that your keris is from East Java or Madura, I count 13 luk. The blade is not a masterpiece of keris forging but the blade isn't ugly in my opinion. You need to take off the handle, I see a fresh crack in the ivory. I would clean the handle with warm water and soap and would give it a longer bath in baby oil, you can prevent by this maybe further cracking of the ivory, the tang (pesi) has maybe corrosion and bring the handle to fracturing. The oversheath (pendok) need to get flatten, you can make yourself a wooden tool for this in form of a oval stick. the pendok is not bad. It is a "good" first keris, I've seen many keris of lesser quality as first collector keris.
Age I would guess around 1900 but the blade could be older.

Regards,
Detlef

[Jean]

The blade & ivory hilt are typically Madurese but the scabbard is from Solo (Central Java).
Regards

[GrozaB]

Thank you for your input!
Question number one - how to remove handle?
Number two - it is fresh red rust on the blade. How to clean the blade on the keris? I'm used to smooth, polished blades and deeply etched keris blade is new to me... I don't want it to rust, but I don't want to remove patina etc ether...
Number three - I paid xxxx for this one on estate sale. Is it high, low? I tried to search eBay, but prices there is all over the place...

Edit:
We don't discuss value here; but having said that you got a good deal.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, I agree completely.

I will add, that for a Madurese blade of this period and style, it is a good example.

I will also add that I detest rap music --- ugliest excuse for music I've ever heard.

Don't like Picasso much either. Again, in my eyes, downright ugly work.

But many people disagree with me.

[GrozaB]

Sorry to call it "ugly" - I'm used to highly polished blades...

[Green]

This is a good catch in my opinion. And I am very partial to this donoriko style of hilt. It should NOT be tampered with and taken apart I think. With regards to the blade my opinion is also NOT to do anything and certinly do not overclean it.

I've seen some blades that have been overcleaned to a shiny surface which breaks my heart to look at. Keris are meant to retain the original surface texture and yours have some pamor that will be destroyed if cleaned agressively.

If you have to do anything it is only to get rid of the red rust but even so I don't see that it is a major problem here.

It's a good looking blade to me and to say that it is the ugliest you've ever seen is just like a guy who like me hates yogurt say it's the worst tasting food ever....

[GrozaB]

So, just use some oil to stop rust and leave surface as-is, right?

[David]

hmmmm....firstly i am going to absolutely disagree with our friend Green. Sorry Green. While it is indeed important not to "over clean" anything it must also be understood that keris blades are meant to be maintained with regular cleanings. So i would recommend that you either attend to this yourself or send it out to a professional for attention. As the current custodian of this keris it might even be seen as your responsibility.
Firstly, the surface texture that Green suggests you maintain here is not original to the blade. Keris blades all start out smooth. The topographic surface of a keris like this has developed over what has probably been at least a century of regular acid washings and blade staining with warangan (arsenic and lime juice). I'm not necessarily suggesting that you acid wash and stain this blade yourself. In fact, if this were in my hands i probably would not re-stain this blade even though i do have experience with the process. However, there are a number of things i absolutely would do. It would be much easier to give this blade the TLC that it needs if you detach the hilt from the blade. If there is movement in the hilt this should be very easy. Gently wiggle the handle back and forth while steadily attempting to pull it off the tang (pesi). I say gently with emphasis because your ivory hilt already has some damage and you do not want to crack it further.
Once the hilt is free you will probably find that the tang has a wrap of some kind of material around it to keep the hilt firmly in place. I would guess that there is a little bit too much of that material in place since the crack on your hilt seems to be opening due to the pressure. When you reassemble the pieces after cleaning i would wrap this with slightly less material so that the hilt crack does not bulge. It is better that there is a little movement in the hilt than for you to crack it further to keep it tight.
I would spray the blade complete down with WD-40 and go at it with a hard tooth brush. Let the WD-40 sit for a while first to help loosen the rust. This should not remove the darkened color from the warangan much at all. As for patina, while that is perhaps important for wooden parts (which i would oil btw) it is not the tradition for a well kept keris blade. As i stated, traditionally a blade would be regularly cleaned in an acid bath and re-stained. So what many deem as patina doesn't really accumulate on keris blades. You might also then work on some of the tougher rust areas with a metal needle and a magnifying glass. This would be especially helpful in the separation area where the gonjo meets the blade.
I would also use a polishing cloth on the brass pendok (no pastes or other cleaners though). This type of open pendok may well of had a piece of velvet material in the stem (black or red might look nice to me). Keep in mind that keris are part of a living tradition and are meant, among other things, to be an article of formal dress. They should not look like dingy artifacts of a dead culture. They should have sense of dignity about them.
I would follow through on Detlef's instructions for care of the ivory hilt. They get thirsty over time. When you reassemble the keristake care not to wrap the tang too much that the crack re-opens in the hilt.
As for "ugly", that is indeed an eye of the beholder kind of thing i suppose. If you still feel the same way about this blade after sprucing it up let me know and i will gladly take it off your hands.

[A. G. Maisey]

I agree wholeheartedly with David's comments.

In fact, I will go a little bit further.

I was trained and educated in keris belief, tradition and craft by a man who was the ranking empu in the Karaton Surakarta. I was under his instruction for about 15 years.

I also received advice and knowledge from a dear friend who was also an empu in the Karaton Surakarta and who was my friend for more than 40 years.

In the opinion of both these men, and of numerous other people in Jawa who are a part of the Javanese community, and whom I have known over a period that is now close to 50 years, to leave a keris in a state of neglect is not only disrespectful to the keris itself, but also to the maker, and to every other person who has had custody of the keris.

Any person who has a keris in his care has assumed the responsibility to in fact, care for that keris.

[Green]

GrozaB;

I am a relative newbiew in collecting keris myself and I value and regard Mr A G Maisey as our foremost keris expert in this forum and David is also certainly a very much more experienced collector than me, so I'd give a lot more weight to what they say than what my personal opinion is with regards to blade cleaning and other aspects of keris knowledge.

Having said that, I will say that I am a Malay from Malaysia and keris is in our tradition as much as Indonesians are. for the past several months I've paid more attention to keris and made several visits to keris makers in my area (Kelantan) and met some keris collectors here(malaysia).

when I showed some of my kerisses bought from western collectors with shiny over-cleaned blades , to be fair they did not say it is WRONG, but all have the opinion that the pamor and texture is destroyed by very agressive cleaning.

It is absolutely true that keris should be taken care off and cleaned regularly (once a year) but what is usually involved is cleaning it with immersing in coconut juice for a specific period of time ( 1 day? 1 week?) or rub the blade with lime/lemon juice and washed with soap and brush the rust with toothbrush and dry the keris thouroughly (in shade not under direct sunlight).

My point is, do take care when cleaning and I'd be interested to see your keris before and after the cleaning and restoration.

[GrozaB]

Ok, I understand that keris is not Japanese sword and don't have to be polished. But aggressive rust is my mortal enemy. So, I soak blade (after carefully removing handle) in kerosine/oil overnight. Tomorrow I will take toothbrush and will take care of rust. So patina, pamor and texture will stay. Just no more red rust.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for clarifying that Green.

Yes, some people who are not aware of keris culture do polish keris blades as if they were European weapons. They just don't understand.

Balinese keris are polished clean, rather than chemically cleaned, and I'm inclined to think Javanese keris in the distant past might have been cleaned in the same way.

[David]

It should also be noted, of course, that the tradition of keris care and maintenance is not the same in Malaysia as it is, say, in Jawa or Madura. This, being a Maduran keris, should most probably be maintained in the traditions of that area of Indonesia.
As Alan pointed out, it is the correct method in Bali to polish keris clean and stain them with warangan. This polished look may have one time been the tradition on Jawa as well, but what as developed there over time (and Madura as well) is the preference for the rough, topographical finish on the blade created by acid washing instead. Many Malay blades i see, on the other hand, don't use arsenic to darken the blade at all. Keris culture throughout Indonesia and the Peninsula is not a standardized block of traditions.

[Gustav]

It should be said here, that some very high quality pamorless malayan blades were polished and stained as well.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by GrozaB

So, just use some oil to stop rust and leave surface as-is, right?

Yes, this is imho the best option, otherwise you will lose the contrast of the pamor.
I suggest to use a creeping oil like Ballistol. A nice side effect, after a few weeks of usage, Ballistol improves the black and white contrast. Cleaning and oiling once a week and the red rust disappears after a few days or weeks. All you need is a little patience.

Creeping oil is also very useful for removing the hilt, just oiling and waiting. Alternatively you can try it with a hot air gun with a maximum temperature of ~100°C.


Roland

[A. G. Maisey]

Roland, I had never heard the term "creeping oil" before your post.

I immediately checked this term and I found that it is the oil we know as "penetrating oil".

The oil that David has recommended is in fact a penetrating oil:- WD40

I usually use this, but I have also used another penetrating oil:- Penetrol, but that was years back.

Ballistol is essentially a gun oil, and I've used it on firearms, never on keris, but it would provide a good long term protection on keris and other edged weapons, however, the smell is not appropriate for items of tosan aji.

I don't like heat guns to apply heat to a blade to assist in hilt removal. It is too difficult to control the heat dispersion and it can also heat the hilt as well as the blade, which can damage the hilt. A small flame is preferable to apply heat to a blade.

The big problem with a hilt that is difficult to remove from a keris is that the tang can be heavily rusted, locking it to the hilt and splitting the hilt. In these circumstances the tang will sometimes break. This is not something that we want to happen, but it can be fixed.

The tang can be replaced, the broken tang can be drilled out of the hilt. But both these jobs need to be approached with a great deal of care and more than a little skill.

[GrozaB]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ballistol is essentially a gun oil, and I've used it on firearms, never on keris, but it would provide a good long term protection on keris and other edged weapons, however, the smell is not appropriate for items of tosan aji.

In my experience Ballistol is excellent all-around oil to use on metal, wood, leather etc. Work miracles on small cuts on my hands too
Smell... Well, it is smells much better then many other chemicals I use around my guns

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The big problem with a hilt that is difficult to remove from a keris is that the tang can be heavily rusted, locking it to the hilt and splitting the hilt. In these circumstances the tang will sometimes break. This is not something that we want to happen, but it can be fixed.

The tang can be replaced, the broken tang can be drilled out of the hilt. But both these jobs need to be approached with a great deal of care and more than a little skill.

Both I can confirm. Looking to the pictures from GrozaB I get a misgiving feeling: be very, very careful by removing the hilt.

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, I get the same feeling Sajen.

Yeah Groza, Ballistol doesn't smell all that bad, in fact it is a reasonably pleasant smell. I don't like to use this type of oil on fine woodwork, nor on leather, as for medicinal qualities that's new to me. Interesting.

However, all these chemical smells can disturb a keris, so when we use them, we like to also give a little "gift" to the keris of a traditional oil, something like cendana (sandalwood), or melati (white rose). We of the Keris World like to keep our krisses happy.

Bit primitive maybe, but we're all primitives if you look hard enough.

[David]

Originally Posted by GrozaB

Ok, I understand that keris is not Japanese sword and don't have to be polished. But aggressive rust is my mortal enemy. So, I soak blade (after carefully removing handle) in kerosine/oil overnight. Tomorrow I will take toothbrush and will take care of rust. So patina, pamor and texture will stay. Just no more red rust.

Hi Groza. I just wanted to address this again since you seem to be asking questions here even if you did not use a question mark at the end of your sentences.
The pamor is part of the blade itself. You are not going to remove that with a toothbrush and some oil. I am not sure how you are using the word patina here. If you are referring to the contrasting colors of the blade that is created when the blade is treated with warangan, a combination of arsenic and lime juice. The arsenic reacts with the iron in the blade turning it dark in varying shades dependent upon the content of the various irons used. Nickelous material often used in pamor stays silvery. But this effect has nothing to due with patina. Removing the rust with oil and a toothbrush should not remove this effect nor should it change the texture of the surface. I do recommend that you do all you can to remove all the rust, not just the active red stuff. This will no doubt take time and repeated attention to the blade. You may find it necessary to pick at some of it with a fine needle under a magnifying glass to remove it all. Work slowly and carefully and this should not damage the blade any. What you have on this blade more than what i would call "patina" is dirt and rust. Removing that should increase the contrast of the pattern and make this blade seem more alive. Metal fittings should shine on a keris. I wouldn't get too aggressive with that, but the selut/cup at the base of your hilt may be silver and should be polished up a bit. Don't use anything abrasive of course, but a polishing cloth should help it along. And as i stated before, the same goes for the brass pendok on the sheath stem.