Possable Philippine First Republic Dagger

Robert · 8th August 2015, 03:13 AM

I won this dagger at auction few days ago and thought that I would post it for comments. Though only five inches in length the blade is heavy and very well made for its size. The hilt is made of horn with mother of pearl and brass inlay. Made from an old shell casing only the rear ferrule remains, but I would imagine the front ferrule would have been a shell casing as well. To be quite honest I am not sure that the hilt pieces are original to this dagger but might possibly be later replacements. Normally I would have overlooked this piece but in the auction the seller had commented that the blade had a pyramid with a sun face on the other side and had said he was going to post a photo of it which he never did. All comments on this piece would be greatly appreciated. Auction photos below as well as two new ones showing the sun face.

Best,
Robert

Ian · 8th August 2015, 04:53 AM

Robert:

I agree that the blade and its markings look as though they come from the Philippine Revolutionary/First Republic period. The triangle around a radiant sun face are typical nationalistic marks from that time. The hilt and sheath I'm not so sure about.

I cannot recall seeing another Filipino knife with a crocodile/snake/lizard skin sheath. Of course it could have been custom made, but it is not in keeping with usual Filipino craftwork.

Parts of the hilt also do not seem to fit the period. The horn(?) guard and brass ferrule(s) could certainly be from the time period of the Revolution and shortly afterwards, but the horn(?) handle with inlaid dots is unusual for then (I generally associate that style with later in the 20th C.).

Just a few thoughts and I look forward to hearing from other forumites more familiar with the Philippines Revolutionary/First Republic period (1896-1901).

Ian.

Robert · 8th August 2015, 05:29 AM

Hello Ian, The fact that some of the hilt material seems of a later date had also occurred to me. Also the quality and workmanship of the blade appear to be of a much higher quality than that of the hilt itself. On quite a few of these that I have seen the fittings were made of silver. Maybe this was a later replacement? As leather scabbards most likely have very short lives in the Philippines I would say that this could also very easily be a later replacement as well.

Sajen · 8th August 2015, 12:51 PM

Hello Robert,

a most interesting and unusual dagger. Like pointed out by Ian and yourself could the scabbard be a later replacement but don't think that the handle with the brass fittings are not original to this piece, I have seen a few with brass fittings before. See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...epublic+dagger
But agree that the horn guard is very unusual. I am already curious to see the restored dagger. And I am green with envy!

Great catch.

Regards,
Detlef

Robert · 8th August 2015, 09:28 PM

Thank you Detlef, I am planning on restoring this with the hilt pieces it has now. If later it is determined that this hilt is not original to the blade I can always remove it easily as the brass bead (now missing) is threaded on instead of being peened in place and will make it very easy to remove the entire hilt if needed. I plan on using a brass casing made from either a 45 long colt or 38 cartridge depending on which one has the correct diameter to match up with the horn grip at that end for the missing front ferrule with the rim resting against the guard. As this guard has had the center where the tang passes through eaten away by bugs so badly it now spins I will have to make a replacement for it also. I am hoping that there will be enough members give their opinions on what material should be used for the guard to keep me from having to make it twice

Best,
Robert

Ian · 8th August 2015, 10:31 PM

Either horn or brass for the guard.

Sajen · 9th August 2015, 12:03 PM

I would go for horn since it originally was horn.

Regards,
Detlef

Battara · 9th August 2015, 11:13 PM

Horn is possible, although usually you see brass used for guards of these types of daggers.

I agree that the sheath is newly and later made. MOP was popular later and that makes me think that the rest of the hilt was later as well.

Robert · 10th August 2015, 06:50 AM

Code:

 MOP was popular later and that makes me think 
that the rest of the hilt was later as well.

These are my thoughts as well. While the blade itself is very well made the style of the present hilt pieces as well as the way they fit the tang just does not remind me of the workmanship that I am used to seeing on these older pieces.

Ken Maddock · 10th August 2015, 09:10 AM

Hi
The brass casing looks very like an old shotgun cartridge, these normally have some information on the base, is there anything there
You could measure diameter and get gauge of cartridge and then purchase a similar cartridge to get the older brass look
These cases were from around 1880 till the 1920's, I think
Nice knife
Regards
Ken

Robert · 11th August 2015, 07:10 AM

Hello Ken,
I believe the one shell casing is as you have pointed out and old shotgun shell brass from possibly a 410 or something of approximately the same size. The stampings on the end are very worn, but I will try to get a photo that might show them clearly enough for someone to identify. The missing front piece would have been no larger than a 38 caliber or 9mm. Anything larger would slid up and over the smaller end of the horn hilt.

Best,
Robert

8th August 2015, 03:13 AM	#1
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Possable Philippine First Republic Dagger I won this dagger at auction few days ago and thought that I would post it for comments. Though only five inches in length the blade is heavy and very well made for its size. The hilt is made of horn with mother of pearl and brass inlay. Made from an old shell casing only the rear ferrule remains, but I would imagine the front ferrule would have been a shell casing as well. To be quite honest I am not sure that the hilt pieces are original to this dagger but might possibly be later replacements. Normally I would have overlooked this piece but in the auction the seller had commented that the blade had a pyramid with a sun face on the other side and had said he was going to post a photo of it which he never did. All comments on this piece would be greatly appreciated. Auction photos below as well as two new ones showing the sun face. Best, Robert Attached Images

8th August 2015, 12:51 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Robert, a most interesting and unusual dagger. Like pointed out by Ian and yourself could the scabbard be a later replacement but don't think that the handle with the brass fittings are not original to this piece, I have seen a few with brass fittings before. See here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...epublic+dagger But agree that the horn guard is very unusual. I am already curious to see the restored dagger. And I am green with envy! Great catch. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 8th August 2015 at 10:09 PM.

10th August 2015, 06:50 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Code: MOP was popular later and that makes me think that the rest of the hilt was later as well. These are my thoughts as well. While the blade itself is very well made the style of the present hilt pieces as well as the way they fit the tang just does not remind me of the workmanship that I am used to seeing on these older pieces.

8th August 2015, 04:53 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Robert: I agree that the blade and its markings look as though they come from the Philippine Revolutionary/First Republic period. The triangle around a radiant sun face are typical nationalistic marks from that time. The hilt and sheath I'm not so sure about. I cannot recall seeing another Filipino knife with a crocodile/snake/lizard skin sheath. Of course it could have been custom made, but it is not in keeping with usual Filipino craftwork. Parts of the hilt also do not seem to fit the period. The horn(?) guard and brass ferrule(s) could certainly be from the time period of the Revolution and shortly afterwards, but the horn(?) handle with inlaid dots is unusual for then (I generally associate that style with later in the 20th C.). Just a few thoughts and I look forward to hearing from other forumites more familiar with the Philippines Revolutionary/First Republic period (1896-1901). Ian.

8th August 2015, 05:29 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ian, The fact that some of the hilt material seems of a later date had also occurred to me. Also the quality and workmanship of the blade appear to be of a much higher quality than that of the hilt itself. On quite a few of these that I have seen the fittings were made of silver. Maybe this was a later replacement? As leather scabbards most likely have very short lives in the Philippines I would say that this could also very easily be a later replacement as well.

8th August 2015, 09:28 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Thank you Detlef, I am planning on restoring this with the hilt pieces it has now. If later it is determined that this hilt is not original to the blade I can always remove it easily as the brass bead (now missing) is threaded on instead of being peened in place and will make it very easy to remove the entire hilt if needed. I plan on using a brass casing made from either a 45 long colt or 38 cartridge depending on which one has the correct diameter to match up with the horn grip at that end for the missing front ferrule with the rim resting against the guard. As this guard has had the center where the tang passes through eaten away by bugs so badly it now spins I will have to make a replacement for it also. I am hoping that there will be enough members give their opinions on what material should be used for the guard to keep me from having to make it twice Best, Robert

8th August 2015, 10:31 PM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Either horn or brass for the guard.

9th August 2015, 12:03 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	I would go for horn since it originally was horn. Regards, Detlef

9th August 2015, 11:13 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Horn is possible, although usually you see brass used for guards of these types of daggers. I agree that the sheath is newly and later made. MOP was popular later and that makes me think that the rest of the hilt was later as well.

10th August 2015, 09:10 AM	#10
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi The brass casing looks very like an old shotgun cartridge, these normally have some information on the base, is there anything there You could measure diameter and get gauge of cartridge and then purchase a similar cartridge to get the older brass look These cases were from around 1880 till the 1920's, I think Nice knife Regards Ken

11th August 2015, 07:10 AM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Ken, I believe the one shell casing is as you have pointed out and old shotgun shell brass from possibly a 410 or something of approximately the same size. The stampings on the end are very worn, but I will try to get a photo that might show them clearly enough for someone to identify. The missing front piece would have been no larger than a 38 caliber or 9mm. Anything larger would slid up and over the smaller end of the horn hilt. Best, Robert