3rd August 2015, 10:16 AM | #61 |
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You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens |
3rd August 2015, 10:37 AM | #62 |
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Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson
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3rd August 2015, 12:13 PM | #63 | |
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Quote:
I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa? |
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3rd August 2015, 10:00 PM | #64 | ||
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Quote:
Many thanks for posting these up, most interesting.I shall give some thought to what your translation might signify. One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck. I envy your ability with deciphering the characters, I have tried many times to get my head around it, but to no avail. Your efforts are much appreciated! Quote:
Some of them took a long time to track down. RWL wrote a history of Wilkinson a few years back, I can try and find the details if it might be of interest? Kind regards, Chris |
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3rd August 2015, 10:23 PM | #65 |
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33rd Cavalry
Here are examples of the sword carried by the 33rd Cavalry.
The officers sword utilizes the 1821 "Honeysuckle" style guard, and the lower sword, for troopers, is based upon the 1908 cavalry sword. If memory serves, the troopers sword was produced by B. Boota Singh and Son, of Rawalpindi. They obviously held several Indian Government contracts, as they also produced high quality kukri during WW1. Last edited by mrcjgscott; 3rd August 2015 at 10:38 PM. |
3rd August 2015, 10:38 PM | #66 |
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Another shot, alongside a standard British 1908.
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4th August 2015, 02:06 PM | #67 |
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If you could dig up the details Chris, that would be great
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4th August 2015, 05:57 PM | #68 | |
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Quote:
I do not have enough knowledge on the topic to say with any confidence, but I believe the inscription is Marathi. When I'm attempting these translations, I write down what I think it says and then type that into a program that converts roman alphabet into a range of Indian sub continent scripts. If I get a match, I know I'm getting better! The first character, Ri, only looks like that when I select the Marathi option. It is different in Hindi, still devanagari script, just a different way of putting it together. All the other characters remain the same however. Perhaps this is a hint that it came from Maharashtra state? Or somewhere nearby? |
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4th August 2015, 06:30 PM | #69 |
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"Mr Wilkinson of Pall Mall", by Robert Wilkinson Latham. Volume One 1772-1899, and Volume Two 1900-1972.
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4th August 2015, 07:49 PM | #70 |
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Sorry to keep clogging this thread with more waffle, if I wasn't still in modded status I'd have tried to edit it all into one post.
Just discovered that Riyasata means something like Principality. So the last two characters are the key. If you can get a clearer pic it might be possible to establish which Principality it came from. |
4th August 2015, 08:25 PM | #71 |
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Silver John that is brilliant work, many thanks indeed!
I will give the thing a good once over to clean the gunk out, and get back to you with better images. Kind regards, Chris |
4th August 2015, 10:54 PM | #72 |
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Silver John,
No problem at all - I am glad you corrected me, that is what the forum is for - or am I mistaken :-). Jens |
5th August 2015, 04:15 PM | #73 |
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Hi Silver John,
I owe you an apology I think: I keep forgetting to check up the thread for your moderated posts to appear, therefore I have missed some of your posts. I apologise if it seemed as though I was ignoring your contribution, it is indeed much appreciated! Attached are some additional images of the crest. The quality is slightly dubious, due mostly to the rollercoaster which is British summertime! I am happy to try again if they are not up to snuff! Kind regards, Chris |
6th August 2015, 07:06 PM | #74 | |
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Quote:
Thanks for the clearer pictures. To me it looks like the fifth character is Tha + either I or O. Because of the way the bar at the top is squashed it's very hard for me to tell which it's supposed to be. It could be something else entirely though. The character for the aspirated retroflex Dha looks roughly similar, could be a poor version of that? My best guess is Ri Ya Sa Ta Thi/Tho Ta. No Idea what that last bit could mean though! I've attached some images, so you can decide for yourself. |
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6th August 2015, 07:08 PM | #75 |
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This example was carried by Jacobs Horse.
It was manufactured by Wilkinson sword. One side was signed with their name in English, the other in Hindi. (Advertising is advertising!) Note the similarities to the hilt of the British 1853 pattern. Kind regards, Chris |
14th August 2015, 11:11 PM | #76 |
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Another from the archives...
This sword was part of an India Office order placed with Robert Mole for 500 swords and 500 scabbards of Bengal Native Cavalry pattern dated 3rd August 1886. Sword priced at 10/6d each and scabbards at 8/3d.
The specification quotes: "The Hilt to be best cast malleable iron. the medallion to be stamped and pierced and neatly fitted to the hilt." Almost certainly produced for Viceroy Commissioned Officers with the crown and Imperial cypher. |
3rd September 2015, 06:23 PM | #77 | |
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Quote:
Once again I completely missed this post of yours! Many thanks indeed for taking the time to look into this conundrum. I don't have any gut reaction as to what it might mean, but I shall certainly give it some more thought. Once again, your research is much appreciated! Kind regards, Chris |
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3rd September 2015, 06:36 PM | #78 |
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Mystery Sword
Here are a few pictures of an Indian Cavalry Sword made by Wilkinson, one of the few pieces I was not able to nail down a solid provenance for.
No orders seemed to remain extant for such pieces in the Wilkinson archive, and it was proposed that the sword may have indeed been a one off or trial piece. It now resides with the Royal Armouries in Leeds. |
5th September 2015, 08:54 PM | #79 |
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Here are a few more shots, showing the typical double ring top mount found on these 1821 hilted, 1796 blades pieces.
Interestingly the scabbard has been "tarted up" post service with the addition of a bright velvet cover, so these blades may have been carried a long time after official service ended. Do let me know if you are getting bored of these images, and I will stop!! |
1st May 2016, 07:20 AM | #80 | |
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21st Cavalry - Indian Army
Quote:
Just new to this forum and mainly interested in EIC and Indian Army, and wonder if I can ask specifically how your 21st Cavalry sword is identified. Would it be with the numerals 21 encircled with a large capital "C"?; and could you also mention the length of the blade, width at ricasso, and whether or not the blade is swamped and broadens before the point. Gordon |
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1st May 2016, 04:11 PM | #81 |
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OK, here is mine: 1796 handle, Indian Muslim blade with " No brave like Ali ..etc", pattern welded, dated 1165 ( 1751-2 Gregorian)
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2nd May 2016, 03:31 AM | #82 |
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What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?
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2nd May 2016, 06:57 AM | #83 |
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Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!! Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj. The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point . If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine. The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy. The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte. The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8). The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size. The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more. Welcome to our forum!!! Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade. All best regards Jim |
2nd May 2016, 10:56 PM | #84 |
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Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .
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3rd May 2016, 12:27 PM | #85 |
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drac2k,
That looks like the coat of arms for Bharatpur State. See: http://www.flagheritagefoundation.or...ian-states.pdf |
3rd May 2016, 01:23 PM | #86 |
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Thank you for the information and that very informative link !
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3rd May 2016, 10:11 PM | #87 | |
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Frontier Field Force
Quote:
Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible. I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords. In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type. Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857. Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others. Regards, Gordon |
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10th November 2023, 09:59 PM | #88 |
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Adding another example that recently came my way. 1796 pattern style blade with 1821 pattern three-bar guard. Unfortunately, no maker markings or dates on the hilt or blade. Looks to have some age and quite robust and heavy. Certainly, a fighter!
Blade Length: 33” (83,9cm) Hilt & Blade Length: 38 ¾” (98,4cm) -Geoffrey |
10th November 2023, 11:10 PM | #89 |
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Geoffrey! Thank you for reviving this thread, and so glad you're still at it with the 'swords of the Raj' It seems we are a limited bunch as this area of collecting and study is not widely brought up.
What a great example of these 'colonial' sabers (as Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", 1967 calls them). It seems that these 'Paget Pattern" #6480 (Wilkinson, but Mole produced many for them) were in 31 1/2" blades for Madras and Bombay forces; while the 33" were deemed for Bengal. By those facts, very possible this might have been for a Bengal cavalry regiment, thus a good chance for lancers. My example (by Mole) is marked to 21C, from 1904 called "Daly's Horse" but a unit of Frontier Force. Pretty exciting history of all these cavalry regiments of the Raj. No idea what the numbers below 21C mean, there were so any number combinations with administrative coding. |
21st November 2023, 06:59 PM | #90 |
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Hi Jim, thank you for the information! I did not know of the designations for differentiating blade lengths and the possible associated with the Bengal forces with the 33” size. Your example is very similar and you’re lucky to have stampings attributed to the 21st calvary, a nice slice of history provenance. I will provide a few links that I have found if anybody is interested in some more information. The first: the Imperial War Museum, second: Australian War Memorial, and third: a brief Youtube video of the history and description of the type.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001638 https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C226996 https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=k92PstHFQRM -Geoffrey |
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