Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors

spiral · 18th July 2015, 07:21 PM

For benefit of clarity & order photos in thread are hosted by photobucket, but to conform to forum rules Ive also added them to the forum as as 1st for permanent record.

Should have added them last...

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

spiral · 18th July 2015, 07:23 PM

Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For a while now , over a decade in fact , there have been many posts on this & others forums regarding the incredibly prolific kukri found generally very cheaply at every car boot & junk shop in England generally known as the ring grip kukri labelling it as an official WW2 Indian Army issue kukri. Myself & many other kukri collectors have disagreed with this, due to lack of any factual evidence. Just unreliable hearsay & blurry pictures.

Heres an example of such a kukri....

[see below]

They have a a pair of brass or white metal rings adorning the handle & quite often have nickel plaited blades... {Rather similar in design to the infamous tourist/export lion head kukri & indeed the fake ww1 mk.2 kukris one see for sale so often.

Sadly on occasion, this viewpoint of them being WW2 Indian Army Issue kukri to Gurkhas, has had the effect of artificialy inflating there price for collectors {Mostly from the USA.} to artificial levels based on false premise that . its a genuine ww2 Gurkha issue kukri.

It is known & accepted in the kukri collecting community that these were being made & for sale in India {Dehradun to be precise.} in WW2, Many Officers & men bought them. It is of course traditional in the British army for Officers to buy there own uniforms & equipment.

Here is a provenanced example... Carried by.Captain Arthur Russell Stuart Holmes of the Royal Engineers during 1944.

[see below]

spiral · 18th July 2015, 07:26 PM

Many soldiers also bought kukri ether to use or as souveniers from the many hundreds if not thousands of Kukri factors, markets, Bazaars & street sellers in India. Some were of this type.{Many,many others types as well.} {this is all evidenced from both photos & period accounts.} I would not be surprised if some Gurkhas even bought them themselves.

Kukris in market, 1946/7.

[see below]

Another market, more kukris...

[see below]

But there is no evidence so far , that they were Indian army issue. No purchase orders, no plans, no period written statements , no inspection marks. etc.

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

spiral · 18th July 2015, 07:27 PM

These kukri in India are known as Garhwali kukris after the Garhwallis who made them.. I should add kukris with silver rings on the hilt probably date back to WW1. And were probably purchased privately by & for Officers. But there a very different beast.

Silver ring grip kukri. from 4th Gr.

[see first picture below]

And one from the 10th GR.

[see second picture below]

The legitimate known ww2 versions of these have steel bolsters. Those made later have steel, brass or white metal bolsters.

All of the posts claiming these are WW2 Indian Army issue are from one person. The picture he uses most to justify his belief that they are ww2 Indian Army issue is this rather strangely blurry one.

[see third picture below]

Recently another kukri collector/researcher came across this less blurred copy.. & accurately named it. Its Gurkhas of 4th Indian Division keep watch on enemy positions in Alpi di Catenaia from high ground on Monte Castiglione, 29 July 1944. The complete picture is found here: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/gurkha%20amp%20kukri.jpg

Here are closer up views

[see pictures 4 and 5 below]

Interestingly this picture is from the collection of the Imperial War Museum in London. Copies can be found, enlarged & downloaded here..

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204677

It Shows beyond doubt the supposed Indian Army Ring Grip kukri. feature is actually a typical probably standard looking WW2 Regimental or Battalion issue kukri. {usualy made in group purchases from the many & varied kukri manufacturesrs in India & various engineering yards on occasion & perhaps on even rarer occasions Nepal. Also on a few documented occasions in times that demand outstripped supply made in house within the Gurkha units from available scrap metal.

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

spiral · 18th July 2015, 07:28 PM

Another strange piece of evidence is an apparently undated picture of a Mess orderly carrying such a kukri! {Actually the clothing could be just civilian style leave attire, I would think? .}

But anyway I've always found this rather amusing as Mess orderly kukris are usually display type pieces,{Like officers presentation kukri on occasion.} which of course are generally different from issue kukri.

Here's the mess orderly picture cited as evidence for it being a WW2 Indian army issue kukri.

[see below]

& another showing mess orderlies wearing silver kothimora & possibly an ivory or more likely {I surmise.}bone handled piece.

[see below]

While I don't know whether these were paid for by the regiment or by the individual Gurkhas, {After all kukris are dirt cheap in India & Nepal even today... never mind in distant times.} to describe them as ww2 Indian army issue seems rather a stretch of credulity & terminology.

When mess orderlies fought in combat, {As some did.} I somehow doubt if it was with an Indian army issue Kothimora with bone handled hilt & silver scabbard!

Of course although maybe one in a thousand of those found today are ww2 private purchase kukris, & some may have been carried in combat zones, the vast majority were manufactured & exported to the UK in the 60s & 70s to be sold in seaside shops along with low grade lions head kukris, & the bone top & ebonised shaft swordsticks {which sadly are often now sold by dealers & auction houses as Victorian!} that were piled high next to the cheap china & buckets & spades.

In fact they are still made & exported from India to the UK today! So without individual province it is impossible to say 100% whether it is ww2 or not, but I think its safe to say they were not Official Indian army Issue kukri to the Gurkhas! {Or probably anyone else!}

Spiral

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

Rick · 18th July 2015, 09:15 PM

Mate, please upload all your linked pictures to the site or they will be taken down .

spiral · 18th July 2015, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Mate, please upload all your linked pictures to the site or they will be taken down .

Sorry Rick,

I thought I had! Lost some somehow in the thread assemblage....

Ive added the missing ones.

.................................................. .................................................. .
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

Daniel J. Boorstinpiral

Rick · 18th July 2015, 09:48 PM

Thanks Spiral .

mrcjgscott · 21st July 2015, 04:03 PM

Many thanks for this Spiral!

Ian · 21st July 2015, 10:14 PM

Spiral:

What Rick was referring to was the fact that you have inserted pictures into your threads that are links from Photobucket or other outside servers. All pictures need to be loaded here as attachments so that the actual files are stored and backed up on the EEWRS web site, and the threads can be restored correctly if there is a problem with our hosting site. Also, external links get broken (companies go out of business, links get changed, etc) and your excellent images disappear.

I know there are a lot of pictures here, but you need to upload them all as attachments or the Mods will take them down.

Ian.

spiral · 21st July 2015, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcjgscott

Many thanks for this Spiral!

Thank you Chris! It seems important that people are not mislead by this kukri.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Spiral:

What Rick was referring to was the fact that you have inserted pictures into your threads that are links from Photobucket or other outside servers. All pictures need to be loaded here as attachments so that the actual files are stored and backed up on the EEWRS web site, and the threads can be restored correctly if there is a problem with our hosting site. Also, external links get broken (companies go out of business, links get changed, etc) and your excellent images disappear.

I know there are a lot of pictures here, but you need to upload them all as attachments or the Mods will take them down.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

I think that's what I've done?

The pictures within the posts are from photobucket, so they appear at a decent size in the correct place.{which does help peoples comprehension.}

All of them I have also uploaded in the first post & in the repley to Rick{ after I had lost a few,} if you can check this please I would be grateful...

I am under the impression that a copy of evry picture I hosted on photo bucket is also hosted on this forum? so that they will never be lost? I thought that was what was wanted?

This seems to match the forum stipulated rules? As I have insured the archival durability lasts as long the text of the post?

If I am wrong please let me know, & I will try to adjust further.

Ian · 22nd July 2015, 12:23 PM

Spiral:

I think we have some confusion about "uploading" files.

When you link to an external picture file with a URL and display it using the IMG tag, that file does not get transferred to the forum's server. It merely gets inserted into the page that is viewed. The only way I know of uploading the file to the forum's server is to first download it from the external site to your computer and then make it an attachment to your particular post. I know this is tedious--and it does not allow for images to be inserted where they should be in the text (this bugs me too because all attachments are appended at the end of the message)--but that is the Forum policy.

Please make these changes or the links to external files will be deleted per Forum policy.

Thanks,

Ian.

spiral · 22nd July 2015, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Spiral:

I think we have some confusion about "uploading" files.

When you link to an external picture file with a URL and display it using the IMG tag, that file does not get transferred to the forum's server. It merely gets inserted into the page that is viewed. The only way I know of uploading the file to the forum's server is to first download it from the external site to your computer and then make it an attachment to your particular post. I know this is tedious--and it does not allow for images to be inserted where they should be in the text (this bugs me too because all attachments are appended at the end of the message)--but that is the Forum policy.

Please make these changes or the links to external files will be deleted per Forum policy.

Thanks,

Ian.

Some confusion indeed Ian!

Just to clarify are you aware a copy of every picture in the thread I posted. is actually already hosted on your forum in this thread in posts 1 & 7?

The ones within the thread that I linked to are just so the thread retains a little bit of relevant context!

Are you actually saying this doesn't match the forum rules?

That "archival durability lasts as long the text of the post"

Which I have already done. I agree it is a tedious process I know because I have already done it in this thread!

To reiterate..

There is already a copy of every picture in the thread I posted. that is actually already hosted on this forum in this thread in posts 1 & 7?

all the best,

spiral

Ian · 22nd July 2015, 01:36 PM

Spiral, I have sent you a PM.

Ian.

spiral · 22nd July 2015, 04:01 PM

Thanks for your pm. Ive replied.

On attempting to delete the pictures throughout the thread that are photobucket linked . I find I no longer have the power to edit my own thread!

What next?

spiral

Ian · 23rd July 2015, 04:09 PM

Spiral:

I have made the necessary changes.

Ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Thanks for your pm. Ive replied.

On attempting to delete the pictures throughout the thread that are photobucket linked . I find I no longer have the power to edit my own thread!

What next?

spiral

spiral · 23rd July 2015, 08:31 PM

Thank you kindly Ian... I am delighted to see it maintained the continuity of the thread.

Cheers,
Spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd July 2015, 08:39 PM

This thread has far too many Orderlies !!

spiral · 24th July 2015, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

This thread has far too many Orderlies !!

Cheers Ibrahim

If you become "special" enough, you can have them too!

Actualy no its all quite normal really... Id misinterpreted the link requirements...very kindly the moderators & particularly Ian has sorted it all out!

So the thread stands & in truth the end result is definably better than my inept software usage of the forum, & my subsequent attempts of editing would have been.

spiral

18th July 2015, 07:21 PM	#1
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors For benefit of clarity & order photos in thread are hosted by photobucket, but to conform to forum rules Ive also added them to the forum as as 1st for permanent record. Should have added them last... .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by spiral; 18th July 2015 at 07:49 PM.

18th July 2015, 07:23 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Ring grip Army issue Kukri, A correction for collectors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a while now , over a decade in fact , there have been many posts on this & others forums regarding the incredibly prolific kukri found generally very cheaply at every car boot & junk shop in England generally known as the ring grip kukri labelling it as an official WW2 Indian Army issue kukri. Myself & many other kukri collectors have disagreed with this, due to lack of any factual evidence. Just unreliable hearsay & blurry pictures. Heres an example of such a kukri.... [see below] They have a a pair of brass or white metal rings adorning the handle & quite often have nickel plaited blades... {Rather similar in design to the infamous tourist/export lion head kukri & indeed the fake ww1 mk.2 kukris one see for sale so often. Sadly on occasion, this viewpoint of them being WW2 Indian Army Issue kukri to Gurkhas, has had the effect of artificialy inflating there price for collectors {Mostly from the USA.} to artificial levels based on false premise that . its a genuine ww2 Gurkha issue kukri. It is known & accepted in the kukri collecting community that these were being made & for sale in India {Dehradun to be precise.} in WW2, Many Officers & men bought them. It is of course traditional in the British army for Officers to buy there own uniforms & equipment. Here is a provenanced example... Carried by.Captain Arthur Russell Stuart Holmes of the Royal Engineers during 1944. [see below] Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 02:51 PM.

18th July 2015, 07:26 PM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Many soldiers also bought kukri ether to use or as souveniers from the many hundreds if not thousands of Kukri factors, markets, Bazaars & street sellers in India. Some were of this type.{Many,many others types as well.} {this is all evidenced from both photos & period accounts.} I would not be surprised if some Gurkhas even bought them themselves. Kukris in market, 1946/7. [see below] Another market, more kukris... [see below] But there is no evidence so far , that they were Indian army issue. No purchase orders, no plans, no period written statements , no inspection marks. etc. .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 02:59 PM.

18th July 2015, 07:27 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	These kukri in India are known as Garhwali kukris after the Garhwallis who made them.. I should add kukris with silver rings on the hilt probably date back to WW1. And were probably purchased privately by & for Officers. But there a very different beast. Silver ring grip kukri. from 4th Gr. [see first picture below] And one from the 10th GR. [see second picture below] The legitimate known ww2 versions of these have steel bolsters. Those made later have steel, brass or white metal bolsters. All of the posts claiming these are WW2 Indian Army issue are from one person. The picture he uses most to justify his belief that they are ww2 Indian Army issue is this rather strangely blurry one. [see third picture below] Recently another kukri collector/researcher came across this less blurred copy.. & accurately named it. Its Gurkhas of 4th Indian Division keep watch on enemy positions in Alpi di Catenaia from high ground on Monte Castiglione, 29 July 1944. The complete picture is found here: http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y266/qwer3/gurkha%20amp%20kukri.jpg Here are closer up views [see pictures 4 and 5 below] Interestingly this picture is from the collection of the Imperial War Museum in London. Copies can be found, enlarged & downloaded here.. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204677 It Shows beyond doubt the supposed Indian Army Ring Grip kukri. feature is actually a typical probably standard looking WW2 Regimental or Battalion issue kukri. {usualy made in group purchases from the many & varied kukri manufacturesrs in India & various engineering yards on occasion & perhaps on even rarer occasions Nepal. Also on a few documented occasions in times that demand outstripped supply made in house within the Gurkha units from available scrap metal. .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 04:13 PM.

18th July 2015, 07:28 PM	#5
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Another strange piece of evidence is an apparently undated picture of a Mess orderly carrying such a kukri! {Actually the clothing could be just civilian style leave attire, I would think? .} But anyway I've always found this rather amusing as Mess orderly kukris are usually display type pieces,{Like officers presentation kukri on occasion.} which of course are generally different from issue kukri. Here's the mess orderly picture cited as evidence for it being a WW2 Indian army issue kukri. [see below] & another showing mess orderlies wearing silver kothimora & possibly an ivory or more likely {I surmise.}bone handled piece. [see below] While I don't know whether these were paid for by the regiment or by the individual Gurkhas, {After all kukris are dirt cheap in India & Nepal even today... never mind in distant times.} to describe them as ww2 Indian army issue seems rather a stretch of credulity & terminology. When mess orderlies fought in combat, {As some did.} I somehow doubt if it was with an Indian army issue Kothimora with bone handled hilt & silver scabbard! Of course although maybe one in a thousand of those found today are ww2 private purchase kukris, & some may have been carried in combat zones, the vast majority were manufactured & exported to the UK in the 60s & 70s to be sold in seaside shops along with low grade lions head kukris, & the bone top & ebonised shaft swordsticks {which sadly are often now sold by dealers & auction houses as Victorian!} that were piled high next to the cheap china & buckets & spades. In fact they are still made & exported from India to the UK today! So without individual province it is impossible to say 100% whether it is ww2 or not, but I think its safe to say they were not Official Indian army Issue kukri to the Gurkhas! {Or probably anyone else!} Spiral .................................................. .................................................. . "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." Daniel J. Boorstinpiral Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 23rd July 2015 at 04:05 PM.

18th July 2015, 09:15 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Mate, please upload all your linked pictures to the site or they will be taken down .

18th July 2015, 09:48 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Thanks Spiral .

21st July 2015, 04:03 PM	#9
mrcjgscott Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 189	Many thanks for this Spiral!

21st July 2015, 10:14 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Spiral: What Rick was referring to was the fact that you have inserted pictures into your threads that are links from Photobucket or other outside servers. All pictures need to be loaded here as attachments so that the actual files are stored and backed up on the EEWRS web site, and the threads can be restored correctly if there is a problem with our hosting site. Also, external links get broken (companies go out of business, links get changed, etc) and your excellent images disappear. I know there are a lot of pictures here, but you need to upload them all as attachments or the Mods will take them down. Ian.

22nd July 2015, 12:23 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Spiral: I think we have some confusion about "uploading" files. When you link to an external picture file with a URL and display it using the IMG tag, that file does not get transferred to the forum's server. It merely gets inserted into the page that is viewed. The only way I know of uploading the file to the forum's server is to first download it from the external site to your computer and then make it an attachment to your particular post. I know this is tedious--and it does not allow for images to be inserted where they should be in the text (this bugs me too because all attachments are appended at the end of the message)--but that is the Forum policy. Please make these changes or the links to external files will be deleted per Forum policy. Thanks, Ian.

22nd July 2015, 01:36 PM	#14
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Spiral, I have sent you a PM. Ian.

22nd July 2015, 04:01 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks for your pm. Ive replied. On attempting to delete the pictures throughout the thread that are photobucket linked . I find I no longer have the power to edit my own thread! What next? spiral

23rd July 2015, 08:31 PM	#17
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thank you kindly Ian... I am delighted to see it maintained the continuity of the thread. Cheers, Spiral

23rd July 2015, 08:39 PM	#18
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	This thread has far too many Orderlies !!